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And if so, what do you carry? I am limited by local statute (Corporate Security, not LE) to a .38 Special revolver, which is provided by my employer. I'd rather carry my own, but I got lucky and got a Model 10 four-inch pencil-barreled gun with a pretty good trigger. But my ammo choice is my own, and I tested a bunch of 38+P loads, and settled on the Speer Gold Dot 135, the one designed for snubbies. I figure if it works out of a two-inch, it'll do even better from a four, and my tests seem to bear that out. My second choice would be Hydra-Shoks, or Nyclads, but my long-hoarded stash is nearly gone. If you get to pick, what do you like, and why?

Papajohn
 

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papajohn said:
And if so, what do you carry? I am limited by local statute (Corporate Security, not LE) to a .38 Special revolver, which is provided by my employer. I'd rather carry my own, but I got lucky and got a Model 10 four-inch pencil-barreled gun with a pretty good trigger. But my ammo choice is my own, and I tested a bunch of 38+P loads, and settled on the Speer Gold Dot 135, the one designed for snubbies. I figure if it works out of a two-inch, it'll do even better from a four, and my tests seem to bear that out. My second choice would be Hydra-Shoks, or Nyclads, but my long-hoarded stash is nearly gone. If you get to pick, what do you like, and why?

Papajohn
For 38 Special our department furnishes Aguila® or MagTech® 158gr JHP. You can use your own ammunition, STD PRESSURE, +P, +P+; as long as it's JHP or LHP. No Glaser® or MagSafe® frangible ammo; Speer® Gold Dot 125gr JHP or Remington® Golden Saber 125gr BJHP is the load of choice for BUG & plain cothes Officers carrying snubbies.
 

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We carry the Remington Golden Saber Bonded in our Glock 22s. The International Wound Ballistics Association ranked that round the best in their test of .40 S&W ammo. I like it.

I carry the Speer Gold Dot rounds in my S&W 342 (38 Special). I shot it into 10% Ballistic Gel at 10 feet and it penetrated over 10 inches. I was very happy with that.

JC
 

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My old agency (I retired in June 2005, 27+ years was enough of that nonsense) specified Ranger SXT in 40 S&W and 45 ACP, W-W 158 JHP in 357 Magnum, Rem or WW 125 grain +P JHP in 38 Special, and the FBI 147 grain JHP sub-sonic load in 9mm from W-W.

Having attended autopsies at which the 40 and 45 caliber slugs were extracted, EVERY ONE OF THEM looked like ad copy for Winchester ammo--that's over 20 examples. The recipients only needed 1-3 well-placed hits to get the idea, I should add. The SXT's impressed me greatly in those two calibers.

My agency's rules for retired CCW are more liberal as to caliber and ammo, although their regs were pretty wide-open anyway. I continue to carry the SXT's as above in 40 and 45, and the 158 JHP's in my 686 x 4". I didn't carry my 9mm at work, not liking the sub-sonic ammo performance. Now I carry Speer Gold Dot +P 124 grainers--I like the M-9 spec ballistics (1220 FPS from my P-226) and the controlled expansion capability of the bullets.

Overall, I find myself carrying the 357 Magnum most frequently--I spend a LOT more time in the backcountry and much less time in town these days. A change of environment caused a change in armament. These days, I'm far more likely to deal with a bear, badger, or game animal than an armed bad guy--but that 357 makes the leap from field round to felon-repellant better than any autopistol round--excepting the 10mm, which is another option for me now.
 

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Thanks for all the info, Al! I'm glad to hear you got out sane and healthy, 27 years is a long time to wear the badge. I bailed after 15, too many new rules, too many lawsuits, too many administrators. I do a little patrol work these days, but mostly I'm a desk jockey now. But they've asked if I would take an unarmed post, and the answer is always the same! I'm surrounded by armed folks who have no business wearing a gun, but nobody asked me if it was okay. I shoot many thousands of rounds every year to be as good as I once was, and I still ain't. But at least I try.

I once worked with a guy on a stakeout who told me that if the feces started flying, to hit the ground, 'cuz he was "just gonna start blasting." I politely told him that I'd shoot him FIRST if he drew his gun, just to be on the safe side. :twisted:

Papajohn
 

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If I were limited to a 38 Special x 4"--and I was for the first 8 years of my career--I'd select the old FBI load featuring the 158 grain Lead SWC/HP and +P pressures. If it's a post-1956 K-frame, it will be fine with +P's.
 

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Where I work we are stuck with company owned (as required by Michigan Law for Armed Security Officers) 9mm and went from the Hydra-Shoks to a 147gr. Hi-Shok for ammo. We don't get to take our service weapons and practice, but when the time of year rolls around to qualify, we use cheap 115gr. solids. I would like to see us go to a .40 or a .45 with the Hydra-Shok, but then most of the females here would not be able to qualify and would have to leave (The trainer does "help" them quailfy now, but it would be to much cheating using something bigger than the 9mm).
 

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I have been retired for eight years and my ex dept went through a lot of changes while I worked there. When I started we were limited to .38 spl 158 grn swc the old LAPD load. It was and still is worthless in my opinion, we then upgraded to the .357 125 grn lhp that was a real good load I also carried it off duty and while in plain clothes shubbie. About 1990 after a lot of pressure from the line troops we went to the Glock but they had to be either the model 23 in .40 S&W or the Model 21 .45 ACP I had some experience with the .45 in the Marines so that was what I went with, how ever I still carried my snubbie as aBack up I went from a S&W 36 in .38 spl to a Ruger SP101 in .357 I was limited by dept regs to the 125 grn Remington JHP. I can say from my own testing that the .357 has just as much poop as the .45 the onlt round I ever saw that I would feel compfortable with in the .38 spl was a 148 grn inverted hollowbased wad cutter loaded to around 850 FPS that round was strickly verbotten with my dept. I showed it to the chief once :? While at the range, even showed him the expansion it gave, after he got over his fit of appoplexy :lol: I was told that if I got caught carring that round on or off duty i would be doing Xmas foot patrol, and if I ever actully used it on anyone I would be fired. Somthing about vicarious liability and a bunch of other collage educated cuss words. So any way I was happy with my Glock 185 grn Golden sabers (after the Black talon was outlawed that is) in fact I still have my Glock and my Ruger and if Kansas ever gets into tthe 21st century and passes a CCW I will be carrying one of them again.
 

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CARRY GUNS AND AMMO

I carried an issue wheelgun for a lot of years (mod.66). Our issue ammo was +P+ 110 grain jhp LE only. In my last position, I carried an issue Sig 228 DAO and a MP-5SD. We also carried 870 Remington shotguns. Pistol and MG ammo was CCI Speer 125 grain gold dot JHPs. I still don't know why we weren't issued subsonic ammo for the MPs. The report was deminished enough to not be uncomfortable on unprotected ears. Shotgun ammo was #4 buckshot. Other weapons were HK 91s and the HK PSG1 system in 7.62mm. I learned I can miss with anything. Still, I was confidant if I walked into any situation aware I would survive to get writer's cramp. I practiced a lot.
Tom :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
So, Tom.......what did/do you like the best? I'm a wheelgunner myself, but also own a 40 EAA Witness that I shoot a lot, mostly on bowling pins. But it's probably what I'd grab first in the SHTF. Otherwise, by bed gun is a M-65 Smith 3-inch with Speer Gold Dot 135 Snubby Ammo. I'm pretty well convinced the Speer Gold Dots are the best thing out there, regardless of caliber. Hydra-Shok is also good, I tend to carry that in winter, for better penetration thru heavy clothing. But I'm also convinced that the Gold Dots are mosre accurate, at least in my guns. What say you?

Papajohn
 

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wheelgun

Papajohn, I like so many others just had to have a seli auto pistol. After our agency changed, I came to the conclusion a wheelgun wotks just fine. Anyone who would miss with six would miss with twelve or sixteen. My primary off duty weapon was a S&W model 65 three inch round butt .357. I believe the model 65 or model 13 are the best combat revolvers made. The two inch was short. The four inch was difficult to conceal. The three inch carried and shot great. I don't carry anything since I retired. I just trust in the lord and keep going on with my life. My friends still don't understand what I mean when I tell them about rolling in the dirt with someone half my age and twice my size. It's just a different world now. Still I remember.

Take care and God bless.

Tom
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I'm with you on the M-65 3-inch as the best of all wheelguns, I can't shoot a 2-inch worth a foop, but the three-inch shoots like a dream for me. I had to look long and hard for mine, got the VERY last one out a batch advertised several years ago, police trade-ins from the Det. Bureau somewhere. I de-spurred mine to keep it from gouging my love handles :roll: and I pack it in a DeSantis IWB holster off duty. It's a sad state of affairs when my off-duty gun is allowed to be more potent than my duty gun, but that's life. But I keep the Gold Dots in both, and doubt I'll ever need more than that. And if I can't finish the job with six rounds, six more probably wouldn't make much difference! The best thing about the old K-frames is that they slick up so well, my DA trigger is about seven pounds, and smoooooth as glass. Wish I could do that to my duty gun!

Thanks for the replies, gents, and may we all never fire a shot in anger!

Papajohn
 

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Wheelguns

Papajohn, I really enjoyed showing up the auto shooters with my wheelgun. I had a very good source for all the old treasury loads I wanted. I usually shot the little man in the upper right hand corner of the target at 15 yards. I was able to qualify with the auto very easy. In practice sessions, I got a kick out of showing up the auto shooters with my wheelgun. That's all past now. My stroke partially disabled my left side. I'm a two handed shooter.
As for ammo. Most of the research showed the +P 158 grain lead swc hollow point to be one of the best stoppers available. I carried it but only had to draw it twice in 20 years. Never needed to shoot at a bad guy. I was very confident with the wheelgun. Now I find I just don't look at things the same way. I also like the golddot jhp. Our required duty round was a +P+ 110 grain jhp. I came to the conclusion any round could be effective with PRACTICE. I think of the Newhall incident in CA where two chippies got in a shootout with two bad guys. The CHP officers were armed with .357 revolvers loaded with +P 158 grain JHPs. It seems these officers qualified with .38 wadcutters. The outcome had the predictable results. Two dead officers. In addition to not practicing with what they carried, these officers were found with empties in their pockets. It was believed the officers were accustomed to picking up their brass at their range. I do believe in practice with what you carrey and carry what you practice with.

Take care and God bless.

Tom :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
The even sadder part of that whole Newhall thing was that before it was over, the were FOUR dead chippies. They were taught to stuff the brass in the pocket of their overly-tight pants at the range, and as always, they followed their training. One wounded officer was stuffing the empties into his pockets when the bad guy outflanked him, popped up behind him, and blew his brains out. Ironically, when the whole thing started, the bad guys were on their way back from target practice. Bad training, bad tactics, and a little bad luck thrown in. What a mess.

Most experts consider that incident the beginning of the "Officer Safety Movement," and it was long overdue. One of the reasons I quit/(got fired for calling the Chief a stupid @$$hole) was because when we switched to Berettas, he refused to let our officers carry them with the safety on. He thought most cops were too stupid to remember to pop off the safety as they drew. I told him if they trained that way, they'd be fine. He won, I left, and so far nobody's gotten killed with their own gun. Not yet, anyway.

The sad part of that was that he was the best Road Sergeant we ever had, the best backup you could ask for in a bar fight. But they turned him into an Administrator, and ruined a good cop. I miss the guys I worked with, but not the idiots upstairs, who forgot everything they ever knew about life on the street!

Whew! I feel better now. Thanks for sharing your opinions and experience. And listening to me rant!

Papajohn
 

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ammo

Pappajohn, I ran into the same type of situation with administrative types. It was a severe lack of leadership. There was a move to younger brown nose robots. I transfered to treasury to keep my retirement. Not dealing with the public really bothered me for a while. I ended up with BEP in Fort Worth. The currancy facility was a fortress. We were responsible for protection of billions in currancy and the printing facility. Everyone there was cleared through a very deep background check. After I got used to the job I began to realize this was the best job I ever had. No more drunks. No roberies. No assaults. We didn't need to worry about anything off facility except for currancy shipments delivered to local airports.
It did ruin me for crime movies. There is just NO way to get a million dollars into a 2" briefcase. $320,000 in twenties weighed about 35-38? pounds. At the time we only printed up to $20.00 bills. The cash packs had 16,000 bills. The special blast doors into the currancy area were unbelievable. A tank may be able to blast a hole in the door but the bad guys couldn't get anything other than their arm in. If anyone ever got to that point, they would never make it out. Like I said, it is a fortress. Every sort/sot/swat team in the county could be there in minutes. There is also a military base nearby that could be called on. It was a very safe place to work. There were cameras watchind cameras watching cameras. Real heave duty redundency.

Take care.

Tom
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Sounds like a pretty sweet gig. The moment you realize you never have to worry about another drunk taking a poke at you, or barfing on your shoes, something changes. I have learned the smell of gravy, and I like it! The pay isn't great, but I work with 489 people I know, I know their cars, their license plates and their habits. And where they're concerned, I'm like a mother wolf.......mess with my charges, and I'll make it the worst day you ever had. I promise. Aside from that, I sit on my keister, read the paper, and do a zillion crosswords. Life isn't too awful, for a cranky old ex-LEO like me.

Papajohn
 
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