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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Jayco
I'm going tomorow to try the same H322 54gr load with some LBT Cast 405gr gas checked bullets. Do you think I should be ok pressure wise, or do cast bullets cause higher pressure?

One more question for all of ya. Out of all the bullets I already have, which one would chose, as the best all around from Moose to Squill if you could only have one.
Heres the list.

REM 405
REM 300 HP
Barnes 300 XFP
LBT 405 FNGC Cast
True Shot 405 FP Cast
True Shot 350 FP Cast
Hornady 350 RN
 

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Gurn-I myself would start out lower and work up useing published data from a good source.I have only tried the 550 grain Hardcast useing data or going off of another's data that has used it with a max velocity in mind from those that have.Brian Pierce has loaded the 450 Marlin with a 415 grain RCBS cast w/check at 48 and 50 grains of RL-7 for velocity's of 1875 and 1960 fps out of the Guide Gun.As you know,Harcast do there best work at lower velocities rather than max.Randy Garrett loads his 415 or 420 grainers at 1850 fps or so, with the Guide Gun being 75-100 fps less.If it was me and I had know data and a 22 inch barrel I would work up to about 1850 or a hair more tops with the 405 hardcast not that you can't probably get more velocity but they just work and penetrate better at lower velocities.Tried and proven where jacketed are the oposite.

Bullet choice-Thats a hard one but of all the bullets you listed the Barnes XFN is by far the better constructed jacketed bullet.It also came in second on penetration test of all the major jacketed bullets in .458 Caliber at 2100 fps out of the Guide Gun with the Nosler being #1 but it lost its petals.The boy's in Alaska swear by it for game.So that would be my choice.

Have fun today.Jayco.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
OK heres what happened

Temp 45

Load #1 Barnes 300 51gr RL7 1960fps
#2 52gr RL7 2000fps

#3 REM 405 54gr H322 1900fps


#4 LBT 405 51gr H322 1880fps
#5 54gr H322 1980fps

I'm taking your advice and will use the 300 XFN for my standard hunting load. I believe it's good advice. Of course I'll have to get it aproved by Big Mortie, but I think he might just gofer it.

Heres my plan, use load #2 as base of operations rechecking velocity on a 70 degree day using 2100fps as my target
Of course because the 45/70 is a old classic, I do need (want) one good hard cast hunting load. I'm going to reduce load #4 buy at least a grain or two and retest when it warms up.

I had a bad experience once with a freinds 7mm, worked up a load when it was cold. We went spring bear hunting in Quebec it was a freak year around 70 to 80 degree temps we had brought thick camo and were burning up in our stands. the worse part was the load was to hot in 80 degree weather. flattened primers and sticky bolt.

After this I need to get a good Moose to Squill load for my brothers 450. I'm sure it will be the Barnes also. Then work on some light target loads for both of us, I sure have plenty enough bullets to try for that project.

Thanks for the help I'll try not to bother you agian for a little while.
 

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Gurn-Hey keep us or me informed on your work with the Barnes.I have not been able to find much data for it with pressures to back it up.The only data I have found for it from a pressure barrel taking it close to max is test for the 450 Marlin and different powders than I have.If you have any other data on the 300 Barnes,slip me a PM or e-mail.Jayco.
 

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Gurn just a side note, it is my understanding that cast bullets are usually lower in pressure as compared to jacketed bullets. It has to do with the lead, I believe, as it "slides" easier down the barrel and forms a better seal. I was informed that you can safely take a load that was for a Rem 405 JSP lets say and run a cast bullet the same weight and you will actually gain velocity and lose some pressure. As always work up to the maximum when changing a component. I too will be looking for your Barnes findings.
 

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Yes, Dave in LB is correct. Cast bullets in the same weight will generally produce less pressure than jacketed bullets. The lead offers much less resistance as the lands impress the bullet than copper, gilding metal jackets, there is less bearing surface due to the lube grooves in cast bullets, and the lube itself may help lubricate the bullet through the bore.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thanks Dave for the info on cast vs jacketed pressure.
Jayco if you want I can post the load data from the Barnes loading manual, although it doesn't show the pressure for each load. I talked to a gentleman at Barnes who said for the 45/70 they use, trapdoor 28,000psi modern lever 40,000psi, and Ruger #1 50,000cup. He also told me he wasn't sure on the 450 either 40,000psi or 43,000psi he did not have the information available to him right then. Form what I have seen so far the max load of 49gr RL7 45/70 and 47gr RL7 450 are very mild as far as recoil and signs of pressure. The last load in my 45/70 was 52gr RL7 which is the load I will probably stick with. Three shots at 25 yards .25"
51gr four shots at 25 yds. just a hair bigger. I was surprised how easy it was to get these critters to group. The reason I was only shooting 25 is because I was mainly checking velocity. One last thing, I dont know why some of the pressure they gave me were in psi and some were in cup. :?
Jayco let me know if you need the Barnes load data.
 

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Gurn-I don't think that Barnes load of 49 grains is at 40,000 CUP or close.Just an opinion.I use 57 grains of RL-7 with the Nosler and Winnie cases for a summer max of 2300 fps.With the Barnes being longer I have know idea what a max would be other than if compared to another powder the max was 2100 fps out of the Guide Gun.On your velocities it appears for my own benefit that 2.5 more grains would be close but then again I don't know.

Jackfish would probably have an idea on that one and I would be curious on his thoughts.

Best of luck.Jayco.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Jayco I have used Barnes X for about 10 years now and in every case I remember the same charge used with a lead core would would show signs
of higher pressure with the X bullet, the most obvious being higher velocity. This was eliminated or reduced with the new barnes XLC coated and triple shock bullets.
This is a new experience for me loading straight wall cases for both my 45/70 and my brothers 450. For some reason most of my experience with X bullets has been that they are sometimes very hard to get the same accuracy as the standard lead core, although preformance on game has been great. When I talked to Barnes about the pressure the gentleman told me that the new triple shock X did not inherit this problem. The funny thing is I don't have this problem with the 300gr XFN, they shoot like the dickins so far. Also the 52gr load seems ok pressure wise. Looks like these huge X's have less problems then the smaller calibers.
One other thing I've noticed I'm getting much higher S.D. with these straight walls, anywhere from 15 to 35 fps. with the different loads I've tried. That seems quite a bit higher than the bottle necks I'm used to. Is this normal?

Ok Jackfish now were both waiting on your thoughts
 

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Gurn-The Barnes 300 XFN is 1.02 in- long while the Nosler-0.83 and the Sierra-0.78.It is even longer than the Hornady 350-0.90-Speer 350-0.97-Speer 400-0.97 and the 400 A-Frame is 1.13.So it takes up alot of space and powder room.In the 450 Marlin it leaves room for powder at about 53.8 grains being only second to the A-Frame at 49.1 grains of powder.

So its almost like loading a 400 grain bullet as far as powder capacity goes.We all know that changes some in 45-70 Brass but it still takes up alot of room.Rick Jaimesons loads for the 300 Barnes was 46 grains of VVN-120 at 1931 fps and 39,000 PSI and 52 grains of AA-1680 for 2100 fps and 41,400 PSI.Both Guide Gun velocities.
So 2100 fps seems to be the top velocity at a max PSI.To me the Barnes loads like a 350 grain velocity wise.

That makes me wonder about RL-7 and the max summer velocity?Certainly the 45-70 Winnie case has the room but what about pressure?Or the best powder?Would H-322 work?With the length being right in the middle of 400 grainers would something like 52+ grains of H-322 be in the ball park?

I find it interesting without any data or test to work off of with a Hodgdon powder or RL-7.As you said if Old Jackfish could chime in with his thoughts or anyone else that knows.I know He and Coyote tried the Barnes and were unhappy with the results.

I think I know,but I would like to go off some sort of Data or a comparible powder.

Jayco.
 

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Thats why it seems some 400 grain data loads might be the key to the barnes bullets in the 45-70?Heck I don't know but it sure is interesting atleast to me.Jayco.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
The reason I used RL7 was because it was one of top recomended powders in the Barnes manual. After thinking about what Jackfish said I realized that my RL7 was also about 7 yrs old. I should try some new stuff and see what happens. I will send you all the data from the Barnes manual.
 
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