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Crap Miss Nomer, an event happened which had no precident. The blame game is a waste of time unless you really believe that folks deliberately tried to hurt other folks. We new a few things about Pear Harbor before it got blown up as well. Oh but hind sight is great for the whinning. Especially if you can wiggle the blame up the ladder to someone you don't like. Those dikes have been a weak link throughout many administrations and were to fail at some point. It wasn't this administration's attitude that failed here but all the administration's attitudes, past and present. Who better to know that the problem exists than the people, city, county, and state itself. Making a phone call to Washington does nothing to take the monkey off the locals back. Taking responsibility for yourself is becoming just a memory. I can tell you absolutely that if I was living in a threatened area of New Orleans and I was poor and had no vehicle I would have made sure my family was in a safe place. I would not have started as the dikes began to fill and fail. I can't imagine me standing on my roof waiting to be "saved." I can imagine myself saving some of those knuckheads. Please know I'm not heartless. Some folks got hammered or killed regardless of their efforts. but the folks that sat around waiting for the government to do something are just a product of too many years of doing little for themselves. All those good folks looking for treasure in the deserted stores were not trying to help their neighbor during this disaster.
I do not like to be confrontational here but the skip from self responsibility to Bush in a sentence or a paragraph is not realistic and is driven by motives other than productive thought. Life is good, BestLevere
 

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The democratic machine can muster 40-50,000 inner city voters on election day (that means putting them on buses). This is all a red herring posed to throw yet more blame to be used for the next election. FEMA was never intended to be there at H+1.....H+48-72 is more like what the guidelines are in real life. That's what happens when people are used to sitting on their asses and haveing everything given to them. Wonder why there are no reports of this nature in the other states??? :evil:
 

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Ditto,Lever-best I say no more
 

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but the folks that sat around waiting for the government to do something are just a product of too many years of doing little for themselves.
Exactly.

When I get snowed in this winter, and I will, since I choose to live in an area that got over 20 feet of snow last year, I will not sit around waiting for the government to come and bail me out. I will pick up my satellite phone and call some nice man with a snowplow. :)

Glad to see you've found a new cause to whine about, but it was a natural disaster, not one of your usual government conspiracies. Your time might be better spent actually doing something concrete to help these people rather than spending yet even more of your time on the internet putting forth your ridiculous political "theories".
 
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BESTLEVER. Agreed Sir. The gov and mayor were called personally by the head of the ntl hurricane center and told them that there were 68 ft waves 240 miles out and begged them to evacuate IMMEDIATELY. They both sat on their duffs and did nothing. There were over a thousand buses available to transport the poor, or anyone else wanting to leave, they were never used. 3rd, and 4th generation of govt handouts and welfare is responsible for a lot of the deaths there. There were indeed needy people there who deserved help, but didn't get it. Now the dumcraps are blaming president Bush for all of this instead of admitting to their own failures. Put the blame where it belongs, the mayor, and govornor. POWDERMAN. :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x
 

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They were told to get out.. they stayed.. there choice ,,, not my responsiblity..

Earthquakes in CA and other parts of the world... no warning.. Understandable...... Everyone in the World knew that Katrina and Rita was coming well in advance.. .. Build a City under along the Coast and under sea level at that is just moronic... I feel bad they got hit.. I do feel bad some died.. But life sometimes sucks.. It's not mine or the Governments responsiblity ... Take responsibilty for your own actions..and accept the reaction ..
 

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Right on Gunjunkie. No one should ever depend on government in a disaster situation. You should have enough provisions for at least 2 weeks if not longer. Yes I feel sorry for the loss these people suffered but this should be a wake up call for all of us.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
So it's their own fault?

It looks like the consensus here is that it's the people's own fault they didn't evacuate and save themselves. Whether the local government or federal government, or both, or FEMA should have done more, I don't mean to specify it was someone's fault over others, I only wanted to point out the blame doesn't rest with the victims, at least not the ones who did NOT have the wherewithall to evacuate themselves.

I have several posts here to check back on which I will probably do tonite. I know it's all just for the sake of discussion / debate / informing one another about what we know or what we think, but this topic gets me upset, so I didn't come back and look at the replies til now.

I find the differing points of view interesting. I've been, well, fairly poor in my life, and if I were in a position to have to evacuate under those circumstances, and if I'd survived a number of hurricanes prior to that, and ESPECIALLY if I had a roof over my head where I was (and alot of people didn't even that THAT going for them), I could see how it would have felt having to make that decision to leave -- off to -- where? with no car? no money? Maybe no bus fare or nobody to drive you outa there even? No shelter or food or friends who could afford to help you where you're running off to?

I still don't think you can blame the victims here. Sure, it was a natural disaster and the worst in our country's history, next to 911 perhaps, but it wasn't exactly unforeseen. Specific news stories had already been written about EXACTLY this happening.
 

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I cant say theres no blame to be levied against the LOCAL Gov't in LA about this but the bottom line is we each have a responsibility for our own saftey, ask the cops who left. If I lived there myself & was aware of the danger, & that would be MY responsability as well, I think I could have made my way out. Most of those people had legs & those things got people around for a long time before busses & gov'ts. Alot of people seem to want to rid themselves of any & all responsability for their own saftey & wellbeing & this is the result. Everyone knew days in advance that this storm was coming, theres no excuse for either the people or the local Gov in this instance.

While we dont have hurricanes of that magnitude up here often we get whalloped once in awhile. The last time I was a young man & again it was nothing like what they suffered down there but they had an evacuation of low lieing areas & we lived in one. My family left but I stayed. We were lucky & the water came up the street but never got our house. Now if our house had floated away & I got swept up in it how could that be anyones fault but mine? That is if theres a need to fix blame at all & in my opinion theres not. We are not ignorant cave men, we all know the dangers of the places we live in & have the technology to predict an auful lot of stuff. Its our responsability to provide for ourselves, we do not live in a nanny state yet & personally I dont want to. I chose to weather the storm because we are definately above sea level & dont get cat. 5's up this way. I had food guns & bullets, water & firewood & felt even if the worst happened I would be able to fend for myself till it passed. :) If we ask of our gov't the impossible we shouldn't be supprised when they dont come thru.
 

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Biggest problem with the whole situation is the poor me attitude, perpetuated by the media, if you went there and interviewed most folks you would get much the same answers as you do here, get off your duff and help yourself. If you went to a shelter where all the "poor" were you would get the "where is the government that always helps us out now" comments, the media is not speaking for the majority in any of these situations, they are taking an opportunity to spin their own agenda not the can do folks of all states affected. Most that evacuated done so in a timely manner and went to friends or family which is what we do. The ones that stayed have a family also, and they stayed and cried poor, poor me and waited for everyone to come help them like they have all of their lives. All we hear about is the poor folks, ever wonder why? Why don't they have a 5 hr spin on the folks down there that rode out the storm, and lived to regret it? Why not a 5 hr spin on the ones that did not leave and don't regret it because they had a plan in place that had nothing to do with the government, just good common sense during a bad time? That my friend won't further anyones agenda, won't help the state get all that billions of dollars and won't sell space to the sponsers. Rev Farakhan said he would have proof to show that the levees were blown and would produce it on 10-4-05 so where is it? More media hype and someones agenda being pushed, so the poor, poor, pitiful me crowd will get another handout, which will never stop.
 

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The MAIN thing to remember, MsNomer, is that you are being used, through Media/'Crat leadership/Black "Leadership"/Liberals....just like the poor people are being used. The objective is the next mid-term and the next Presidential Election. If you believe that someone in WA, be it Bush, FEMA, or the Easter Bunny is responsible for local problems, you are wrong. Seems funny that the rest of the Gulf Coast didn't have these problems....maybe the currupt/inept leadership in LA and N.O. didn't know what the hell they were doing and the national Democratic "Leadership" saw yet another chance to stick it to Republicians with the never ending help from their buddies in the media. Funny how the truth always gets out, isn't it?? :roll:
 

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Tubby ,, your right ... Rev can't keep pants zippered and don't have a Church Jackson will use anything and anyone to further his bank account..
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Who rode out the storm was just the luck of the draw!

swany said:
All we hear about is the poor folks, ever wonder why? Why don't they have a 5 hr spin on the folks down there that rode out the storm, and lived to regret it? Why not a 5 hr spin on the ones that did not leave and don't regret it because they had a plan in place that had nothing to do with the government, just good common sense during a bad time? That my friend won't further anyones agenda, won't help the state get all that billions of dollars and won't sell space to the sponsers. Rev Farakhan said he would have proof to show that the levees were blown and would produce it on 10-4-05 so where is it? More media hype and someones agenda being pushed, so the poor, poor, pitiful me crowd will get another handout, which will never stop.


Well, now, the ones who "did not leave and don't regret it because they had a plan in place" were lucky they didn't drown in their own attics. Are you comparing the worth of the ones who stayed and lived to the ones who stayed and died, now?

I agree there's a lot of spin and BS and hype, whatever you want to call it, for the big bucks to roll into the big pockets.

The value of "poor" people varies as much from person to person as the "value" of anybody, and I'm seeing the same spin in this forum as I'm seeing in the media --- what I have seen of it on TV as I don't have one but also online --- and it is this:

The poor people of New Orleans (and surrounding hurricane areas) are EXPENDABLE. They're not needed on this planet and it didn't matter whether they lived or died. That is what I see being said about all this talk of those "good for nothing people who would not help themselves."

I saw the rumors the levies were blown, and sure I think it's a "maybe" just like the hurricane being "created" is a "maybe." But that is all irrelevant to the horror that America witnessed here, because nobody's going to believe that conspiracy [email protected] anyway, at least not most people, and it probably CAN be proven one way or the other, but like the World Trade Center disaster, the "truth" will be spoon-fed to the masses just as it is meant to be perceived. Or how can I say that better? Just as the people running our country want us to see it.

So just taking the disaster at face value as an act of God, and the breaking of the levies a natural consquence, which by the way was predicted, we are looking at how our country treated the tragedy and how our country responded to it. There were many helping hands coming in and even from other countries, and FEMA blocked the help from happening to a shocking degree. Sure alot of lives were going to be lost, but alot of those lives could have been saved by the people who WERE THERE to help.

That is what horrifies me most about this event and that won't go away.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
tubbythetuba said:
The MAIN thing to remember, MsNomer, is that you are being used, through Media/'Crat leadership/Black "Leadership"/Liberals....just like the poor people are being used. The objective is the next mid-term and the next Presidential Election. If you believe that someone in WA, be it Bush, FEMA, or the Easter Bunny is responsible for local problems, you are wrong. Seems funny that the rest of the Gulf Coast didn't have these problems....maybe the currupt/inept leadership in LA and N.O. didn't know what the hell they were doing and the national Democratic "Leadership" saw yet another chance to stick it to Republicians with the never ending help from their buddies in the media. Funny how the truth always gets out, isn't it?? :roll:
I don't think I am being spun by the media, Tubby. First of all, I may not be a Republican but I'm also not a Democrat. The horror of Louisana was the deadly breaking of the levies and the flooding. That's not about being Democrat or Republican or bad leadership or people who won't help themselves.

The levies could have been strengthened before the hurricane and it was heavily discussed and debated but not done. Sure, hindsight is 20/20 and that's a BS argument for me to make here and now, but it still bothers me a bit.

The people who drowned had many among them who COULD NOT LEAVE. And then people who were not actually dead yet after the hurricane couldn't get rescued or even drinking water? Too whiny to help themselves in that situation? (I'm sorry, I'm not sure if YOU're making the "whiny" argument here.)

And, as I said in a different reply post here in this same thread, it wasn't what FEMA would or wouldn't do, it was the fact they PREVENTED others from reaching out their helping hands to these people. I don't care who the President is or if they're Republican or Democrat --- THAT was unforgivable. THAT was a murderous act.

And I have wasted my time for the last time voting in a Presidential election at all after what I have seen happening with elections. (I do believe in voting at the local level, though.)
 

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In all honesty a suprisingly small number of people perished in this tragedy. Not at all like they predicted. On another note, if these people were aware the levy needed help, once again I wonder why they stayed. Maybe the state should bear the levy burden themselves if they choose to maintain a city below sea level. I gave what I could to help out but cant say I feel the rest of us NEED to pay for a local engineering project such as this. You might not be a democrat Mrs Nomer but your certaily a liberal. No offence intended, just an observation. Maybe what they need to do is cut back on public assistance down there so the poor will leave before a disaster happens. Those in hospitals & other places who couldn't be moved are another matter entirely but equally hard to answer for. I guess the US Gov shoulda set up big fans on the coast to blow the storm in another direction. :lol:
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I'm not quite ready to believe we have the true final count of the number of people who died.

In hindsight now that we've seen the tragedy, I agree with you we should not encourage people to continue to live there if the levy problem isn't going to be fixed.

So I'm a liberal, eh? :?:

And, our President Bush is a "conservative?" :shock:

Hah. How 'bout some definitions?

:wink:
 

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LIBERALS. FOR

NO PLEDGE OF ALLEGENCE IN SCHOOLS.

ABORTION INCLUDING 22 WEEK PARTIAL BIRTH.

NO PRAYER IN SCHOOL

NO TEN COMMANDMENTS IN ANY PUBLIC BUILDING

BELIEVES THE US CONSTITUTION IS A LIVING DOCUMENT
SUBJECT TO CHANGE.

THE SECOND AMENDMENT SHOULD BE DELETED.

THE DEATH PENALTY IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

THAT AFFIRMATIVE ACTION SINCE 1982 HAS HELPED
THE POOR BLACK FAMILIES INCLUDING THE ONES IN
NEW ORLEANS GET OUT OF POVERTY, AND THAT IT IS REALLY WORKING WELL.


NOW WITH THE ABOVE INFORMATION BASICALLY A CONSERVATIVE IS FOR.

PUBLIC PRAYER IS OKAY EVEN IN SCHOOLS, THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ARE THE BASIS FOR ALL MODERN LAW INCLUDING THE CONSTITUTION.

SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE MEANS YOU CANNOT MAKE A LAW OUTLAWING YOUR FREEDOM OF RELEGION. NOT BAN IF FROM SCHOOLS, NOT BAN THE TEN COMMANDMENTS FROM PUBLIC PLACES, NOT BAN A CROSS ON A WAR MEMORIAL BECAUSE IT IS ON PUBLIC LAND.

THAT ENGLISH IS THE ONLY LANGUAGE WE SHOULD BE REQUIRED TO HAVE FOR EMPLOYMENT, PUBLIC OR PRIVATE.

BELIEVES THAT ABORTING A FETUS IS KILLING AN INNOCENT.

THAT PUTTING A GUILTY MURDERER TO DEATH IS OKAY. SUPPORTING ONE ON DEATH ROW FOR AN AVERAGE OF 17YRS OF APPEALS IS OKAY
JUST TO MAKE SURE.

THE CONSTITUTION IS NOT A LIVING DOCUMENT, THERE IS NO BASIS IN IT FOR A FEDERAL LAW TO MAKE ABORTION LEGAL. THAT IT IS UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL STATES TO MAKE THAT DECISION.

THE SECOND AMENDMENT STAYS PUT AS WRITTEN.

AFFIMATIVE ACTION UNDER THE PREMISE THAT ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL IS REVERSE PREDJUDISM, AND SHOULD BE REPEALED. TELL ME THAT A BLACK CAN'T ACHIEVE ON AN EVEN BASIS FOR EDUCATION OR DOES THIS LAW IMPLY THAT ONE RACE IS INFERIOR TO ANOTHER AND MUST BE GIVEN AN EDGE WHEN APPLYING FOR EMPLOYMENT, EDUCATIONAL ASSISTANCE OR ENTRY INTO A SCHOOL?
I DO BELIEVE MY BLACK SISTER IN LAWS BOTH WITH DEGREES AND HIGH IQ REFUTE THAT LITTLE PIECE OF LEGISLATURE, AS THEY DID NOT GET THEIR EDUCATION THAT WAY IT CAME THROUGH TUITION AND HARD WORK. MANY OF MY PEERS AT WORK ARE BLACK AND VERY EDUCATED.


AGAINST THE PREDJUDICED HATE CRIME LAW THAT SHOULD BE REPEALED OR INFORCED TO THE LETTER SO IT INCLUDES HATE CRIMES AGAINST WHITES ALSO.

CAN YOU NAME 3 PEOPLE IN THE US THAT ARE A MINORITY THAT HAVE BEEN CHARGED WITH A HATE CRIME EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE GUILTY.

EXAMPLE #1, 13YR OLD BLACK DRUG DEALER IN GRAND RAPIDS, MICH "WATCH ME CAP THIS HONKY'S ASS" PROCEDED TO SHOOT HIM IN THE HEAD THREE TIMES WITH A .380 AUTO IN FRONT OF WITNESSES.
SENTENCED TIL THE AGE OF 18 YEARS IN BOYS TOWN. CLEARLY WHEN HE SAID HONKY THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN A HATE CRIME. HE DID MURDER A PERSON. 5YRS IN A SCHOOL?

EXAMPLE #2 14YR OLD BLACK MALE FLINT, MICHIGAN "WATCH THAT WHITE MOTHER(&()*&R" PULLED UP WITH A .22 RIFLE AND SHOT HIM IN THE HEAD. THE REVERAND JESSE JACKSON WAS AT HIS TRIAL MAKING SURE HE WAS TRIED AS A CHILD. INCARCERATED IN A YOUTH FACILITY IN BRIGHTON, MICH (THIS IS A UNIVERSITY OF MICH CAMPUS) UNTIL THE AGE OF 18.

EXAMPLE #3 WE ALL SAW THIS ONE ONE TV, WHERE THE THREE BLACK KIDS WENT RUNNING THROUGH THE STADIUM HITTING PEOPLE (ALL WHITES NO BLACKS) THE REVERAND JESSE JACKSON GOT THEM BACK IN SCHOOL AND NO HATE CRIME CHARGES.

THESE ARE JUST THE ONES I CAN RECALL LOCALLY, HOW MANY CAN YOU DIG UP LOCALLY IN YOUR STATE?

THESE ARE JUST A FEW THINGS THAT DIFFER BETWEEN LIBERALS AND CONSERVATIVES. HOPE I HAVE HELPED, TO CLEAR UP A FEW THINGS ON THE CONSERVATIVE MIND.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Okay, then I'm not a Liberal. At least, not a TOTAL LIBERAL.

swany said:
LIBERALS. FOR NO PLEDGE OF ALLEGENCE IN SCHOOLS.
I am for the Pledge WITH the "under God" part left in!

ABORTION INCLUDING 22 WEEK PARTIAL BIRTH.
I do not believe late-term abortion is okay, except to save the life of the mother. As to early term -- well, I think you have to walk in a pregnant woman's shoes to make that decision, and I have not had to go there.

NO PRAYER IN SCHOOL
I don't think that would be a bad thing, even though I do think most people think it crosses the line and goes too far.

NO TEN COMMANDMENTS IN ANY PUBLIC BUILDING
I would be totally in favor of the Ten Commandments displayed all over the place. You don't really have to be religious to need a helpful reminder of the difference between right and wrong.

BELIEVES THE US CONSTITUTION IS A LIVING DOCUMENT
SUBJECT TO CHANGE.

Never!

THE SECOND AMENDMENT SHOULD BE DELETED.
Never! I am scared of guns myself, but I TOTALLY support everyone's right to carry a gun, anywhere, anytime, any place. We are all safer if the only people who have guns are not the criminals.

THE DEATH PENALTY IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
I have never made up my mind about the death penalty. Some people deserve to die for their crimes; some people have been wrongly convicted and executed for their crimes.

THAT AFFIRMATIVE ACTION SINCE 1982 HAS HELPED
THE POOR BLACK FAMILIES INCLUDING THE ONES IN
NEW ORLEANS GET OUT OF POVERTY, AND THAT IT IS REALLY WORKING WELL.

I do believe in affirmative action, so I guess that makes me a bleedin' heart LIBERAL. . . . :roll:
______________________________

I also agree with this:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE MEANS YOU CANNOT MAKE A LAW OUTLAWING YOUR FREEDOM OF RELEGION.

And this (unless of course it's part of the job description to be bi- or multi- lingual):
THAT ENGLISH IS THE ONLY LANGUAGE WE SHOULD BE REQUIRED TO HAVE FOR EMPLOYMENT, PUBLIC OR PRIVATE.

_______
I don't agree with this:
AFFIMATIVE ACTION UNDER THE PREMISE THAT ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL IS REVERSE PREDJUDISM, AND SHOULD BE REPEALED. TELL ME THAT A BLACK CAN'T ACHIEVE ON AN EVEN BASIS FOR EDUCATION OR DOES THIS LAW IMPLY THAT ONE RACE IS INFERIOR TO ANOTHER AND MUST BE GIVEN AN EDGE WHEN APPLYING FOR EMPLOYMENT, EDUCATIONAL ASSISTANCE OR ENTRY INTO A SCHOOL?
The problem with this idea is affirmative action is not about one race being inferior to another, but about different cultures not all having the same information background to get the same scores on tests that are slanted towards certain socio- economic groups, even if this is not done deliberately. For example, Bush Alaskans who happen to be Native raised in Native villages, don't do so good on some, say, math tests because they haven't even been exposed to the technological items described in the "story problem" questions. I could dig up the info on this but it is from memory right now.

I don't believe affirmative action needs to go on forever, however. When we've had enough and when it's no longer necessary would probably be hard to determine for awhile because we can't tell whether the improvement in statistics is naturally happening or if it is due to affirmative action.

The hate crime issue is true, as far as I can see, but so is the disproportunate number of Blacks in general, and Natives in Alaska, being arrested and incarcerated -- (and I do believe we've pounded that topic into the ground elsewhere on this board.)

I guess, in the end, I don't think we can put people into one box or the other and say all the "liberals" views are wrong and all the "conservatives" views are right.

And, again, do you (or anyone who cares to address the question) think our current president, the Brilliant Bush is a conservative?
 
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