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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
While trying to educate myself on everything 45-70 I learned that Hornady brass from their Leverevolution brand is shorter than standard brass. My loaded rounds measure about .050 short of the 2.10 spec. This creates problems with crimping reloads (the cannelure doesn't line up). This would be a problem with tube magazines only. I then stumbled upon a company called Hawk that produces bullets without cannelures and recommends against them. Apparently their jacketing is soft enough, I assume, to take a crimp and they recommend using the Lee factory crimp die. Any thought on this from the experience hand loaders on this forum?
 

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Hello Hugo. I am familiar with Hawks. I love em. They are devastating on critters. Search my posts, there are pics. I don't see why you couldn't do exactly what you described and it work perfectly. There is one other method. You can get yourself a little cannelure maker from Corbin. Then you can put a cannelure any dang where you please on any bullet you have ! Alright, next question!
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Hello Hugo. I am familiar with Hawks. I love em. They are devastating on critters. Search my posts, there are pics. I don't see why you couldn't do exactly what you described and it work perfectly. There is one other method. You can get yourself a little cannelure maker from Corbin. Then you can put a cannelure any dang where you please on any bullet you have ! Alright, next question!
Thanks for the feedback. I think the big issue with most people is mixing these non standard cases with normal cases. It means readjusting the dies. That being said I haven't tried this and am not really sure if 45-70 die sets can adjust for the shorter case (the crimping part). Any thought?
 

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HugoBoss,

First I would not use a bullet for game animals that was said to be devastating, and this includes the Hornady FTX bullets.

Then, a Set of Hornady dies will adjust down far enough to properly crimp the hooky non-standard Hornady brass.

Yes, I have done that on a friend's brass.

I have also seen the devastation caused by the FTX and won't go there especially when a quality Wide Flat Nose (WFN) cast bullet of something over 400gr and fired at 15 - 1700fps is so very effective on deer AND elk without the devastation.

Have no knowledge of the Hawk bullets, but if they are considered to be devastating I'd need no other reason to avoid them.

I understand the Lee Factory Crimp Die of the collet style to be quite good. I would however avoid for sure the Lee FCD which has the carbide ring at the mouth of the die. And yes I have been there and tried those.

Just make sure any Lee FCD to be of the collet style!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
HugoBoss,

First I would not use a bullet for game animals that was said to be devastating, and this includes the Hornady FTX bullets.

Then, a Set of Hornady dies will adjust down far enough to properly crimp the hooky non-standard Hornady brass.

Yes, I have done that on a friend's brass.

I have also seen the devastation caused by the FTX and won't go there especially when a quality Wide Flat Nose (WFN) cast bullet of something over 400gr and fired at 15 - 1700fps is so very effective on deer AND elk without the devastation.

Have no knowledge of the Hawk bullets, but if they are considered to be devastating I'd need no other reason to avoid them.

I understand the Lee Factory Crimp Die of the collet style to be quite good. I would however avoid for sure the Lee FCD which has the carbide ring at the mouth of the die. And yes I have been there and tried those.

Just make sure any Lee FCD to be of the collet style!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot ,

Thank you for your input. Could you elaborate on the devastating part. Is it that it causes a lot of meat damage that your concerned about? I wasn't aware that Lee had a carbide ring on their crimp die. I have Lee carbide dies I use for both my 9mm and 45ACP and did have a problem with the 45ACP brass galling/scratching the brass when I full length size. Lee told me to size them dirty as the carbon acts like a lubricant.
Which die set do you recommend as I have yet to get a set for the 45-70?

Hugo
 

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HugoBoss,

I am using Hornady dies for my 45/70 and like them. The standard 3 die set is working fine for everything including bullet seating and crimping.

Yes, devastation means meat loss. I hunt for the primary reason of putting meat in the freezer and while I realize there will in many to most cases be some meat loss, I try to minimize that issue.

I try to avoid shoulder shots if/when possible much preferring a side to side behind the shoulders hit which, hunting being what hunting is, doesn't always happen.

My first cast bullet critter taken with the 45/70 and cast bullets was taken with a 355gr Wide Flat Nose (WFN) bullet at about 100yds. Muzzle velocity just over 2300fps. NEVER want to see that level of devastation again. EVER!

The tissue and bone was not minced as would be expected with many jacketed bullet bullets, it was simply gone, blown out the back side leaving a very large hole.

I had read many times about earing right up to the hole with cast bullets, but never had I expected this basically non-expanding bullet to make that big of a hole. Velocity was my enemy in this case.

Thankfully that bullet did not give the consistency and groups I desired and after finding that cast bullets of OVER 400gr tend to shoot better in the 45/70, I bought a mold for 465gr WFN which I put out the barrel at about 1650fps.

AWESOME!!!!!!!! Loooooong penetration and reasonable destruction and/or meat loss. This has been my bullet for all deer and elk taken since the first deer with the 355gr WFN and I'd say that every favorable report you read about the game taking abilities of big WFN cast bullets is true in spades!

The Fall of 2012, I had the nice mature bucks belonging to two friends hanging in my shop for cleaning, skinning, trimming and butchering. One was taken with a 45/70 using the Hornady FTX gummy nose and the other taken with a 30/06 and 165gr Nosler Partition. Both taken at similar distances and said to say both taken with shoulder hits.

There was a clear difference in the destruction and meat loss in the critter taken with the gummy nose when compared to the buck taken with the Nosler Partition even though the impact velocity was likely much higher with the "06".

As to the Lee Factory Crimp Die (FCD) there are the two kinds. The one which seems to be well liked is the type with the adjustable collets. The other which is used with straight wall handgun cases is the one with the carbide ring in the die mouth.

THIS IS NOT a sizing die, so don't confuse this FCD with the collet verity, or a sizing die.

This die can and has caused real problems, one of which is the fact that those seeking to closely match cast bullet diameter to bore size, find that using the FCD with the carbide ring in the mouth many times destroys that fit. I was attempting to use one of these dies with my .45acp and it took a couple months to finally chase down the problem I was having.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
 

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There's a heck of a lot of difference between a light cast bullet and an .035" jacketed Hawk bullet. Which did you say was "devastating"?
 

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Smokinjoe,

As I said early on, I know nothing about Hawk bullets. so am only going by what "30calpal" said when he stated that the Hawk was "devastating on critters."

I take "devastating" to mean destructive or in other words, something that causes lots of damage.

Now for fuzzy little ground critters, I'm all in favor of devastating, but on game animals it is something I steer away from if possible and any game hunting bullet known for such performance would probably not be found on my bench.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot ,

Thanks for the information. I use the Lee 4 die set for my 45acp and haven't had a bad experience with the factory crimp die. Did have problems with the full length sizing die embedding brass on the carbide insert and scaring the cases.

I think when bullet manufactures say "devastating" I think they mean energy impacted. Their goal is to minimize bullet fragmentation.

I plan to go hog hunting with this round and want to make sure this critter is down. They have a reputation you know.

Hugo
 

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I would look at a Lee FCD for your set up. As long as you seat to the standard OAL the LEE FCD will crimp any bullet where you want.

Hawks are pretty similar to the Barnes Originals. Pure coppper jackets, tapered and thick. I think what the person meant by devastating is they expand well, but in a controlled manner. Give them a look.
 

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Just remember that a FCD is not a FCD is not a FCD if the one you get DOES NOT have the collet type crimper!

Not being a big Lee fan and having the major problems with the carbide ring style I tended to throw the baby out with the bath water until my son told me about the collet verity.

Then I began to understand that possible they (Lee) did have something worth looking at.

SINCE THAT POINT, I have begun to read closely and find that yes the collet verity is well thought of, while the carbide ring type as often as not is a problem causer.

Just be aware that any type of crimper which forces the case to crimp INTO a bullet which has no crimping groove provision will by virtue of the forces involved cause changes in the bullet itself. Good or Bad, only your testing will answer that.

Personally, I start with a normal 3 die set such as the Hornady and NOT spend additional bucks until test proved the necessity of the expenditure.

It is beginning to appear that the Hawk bullet just may be a worthy bullet, but once your supply is gone, try some over 400gr cast bullets with the Wide Flat Nose (WFN) and your likely to find that there is money saved while the terminal results are every bit as final.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
 

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CDOC great points. I only have the FCD's with the carbide rings for the 10mm and 44 Mag's and they work fine for them. The rest of my FCD's are 30-30, 35 Rem, 444, 45-70, 348 Win. Those are the collet type you are talking about. Great dies. Not a huge Lee fan either, but their FCD in those applications work very well.

Your right about a WFN 400 though. It's what I run in my 45-70 in the 405 grain variety. My good buddy who casts them for me passed away a few months back. Might have to save what he made for me for something special though. Great bullets. Accurate too..






I think the Hawks would be a good option for a sturdy jacketed bullet though, at least for animals in the elk/moose variety.
 
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
:biggrin:This is good stuff!!!! Share the wisdom.
 

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RL7 is your friend! I haven't found a load yet that didn't thrive with some RL7 behind it.
 
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