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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've been told that the reason my cases are needing trimming so often is due to the added stress of the full length sizing die being "out of adjustment". Not sure how much to turn, which way and/or what to do here. Could this be true? I'm using the Lee Pacesetter 3 piece die set.

Should've marked which cases I've trimmed more than once but it seems like every shot with the stout (but 3 grains under max) 350gr loads gives a 2.111-2.114 length after running it through the die.

Help??




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Remember to tell us what case that you are using. Also, can you easily push a bullet into a fired case. Is your chamber rough or pitted.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
ROUND SLAMMER said:
Remember to tell us what case that you are using. Also, can you easily push a bullet into a fired case. Is your chamber rough or pitted.


It's for the 45-70


WWcases
CCI200
[email protected]
Hornady 4502 RN
FCD

Sorry bout that. I'll check on the bullet-in-the-case thing. I dont think the chamber is rough or pitted. The guide gun was new last October and yet to see any signs of gouges, scratches on the cartridges. The rifle cycles very smoothly.


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Perferator,
Your case brand???? There's a BIG difference IMO between the various manufacturers, I've always found Starline to be the best in terms of low stretchiness.
On your FL die adjustment, first check whether an UN sized case feeds and chambers smoothly, and also it's length after firing. You could have a largish chamber coupled with a 'smallish-base' die, meaning the brass, after sizing, expands a lot to fill the chamber on firing, therefore stretching a lot. Back off your FL die a turn or two, and see if that helps, you may be oversizing for your gun/load. You will have to size the neck, and subsequently flare the case mouth, but for your brass life, the least necessary for reliable functioning is going to be best for case life.
I'm just trimming some 45/70's right now,,,, but I'm only going to 2.100", the 'trim to length' is well under the chamber length, again, minimum necessary is the optimum.
BTW, maximum listed loads are NOT cast in concrete, there are so many variables gun to gun, conditions, powder batch, bullet size, crimp, etc etc etc, that they may NOT be safe for your application. Personally I very rarely get anywhere near Max loads, I'm after consistent accuracy. Your guns will last a LOT longer with much less stress and strain, if you want more horsepower, go to a bigger cartridge, rather than squeezing the last 100fps out of a round. Lol, I've got an NEF "Buffalo Hunter" in 45/70 that I'm thinking of going to a 45/90 in, but I'll keep the M1895 right where it is, with mid-range range loads it's a tack driver.
Hunting success, IMHO, is placement, placement, placement.
Cheers,
R*2
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Rrussell,

I've used the WW since the start but have also worked up some once-fired R-P's. Case brands are indeed different. The 51gr loads are stout enough and have no purpose to go higher. I can however see the effects on the cartridge lenth. An unsized just-fired case will cycle with zero hang-ups. The only thing out of the ordinary is that with the WW cases I've noticed a slight "wrinkling" lengthwise on some of the cases. One was bad enough that I didnt want to fire it and stuck it away.

The R-P cases will be devoted to the [email protected] loads...lighter, more to medium in power. I'm saving the WWcases for the H4198 and will only use them for when heavy hitting is needed (which is rare for me).

I'm going to start marking and making notes so I can track case life. So far the die is working well, seemingly. I do know that the hotter the load (higher pressures) will flow the brass more readily.

Just trying to figure things out. :)

Thanx!


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Perf,
By WW, sorry, I missed the detail previously, I presume you mean Winchester. Your "wrinkling" longitudinally could well indicate an oversize, or rough chamber. If fired cases chamber well, I'd go back to my original "advice" (NB*, advice is worth what you pay for it!) , and try mimimalist sizing.
Haven't tried this, but if you've got some 45Colt dies, try just neck sizing with the FL just down far enough to get a bit of neck tension on the bullet; flare, seat and crimp per usual practice. I believe you've got the Lee factory crimp? A firm crimp with that in a cannelured jacketed bullet I'm sure would be perfectly safe and suitable for a tubular magazine.
Cheers,
R*2
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Ok, got some measurements for ya'll....


Using the Rem cases (from the milder loads of IMR4198), twice fired and untrimmed. Taking measurements at the 405gr cannelure.

just after firing they measure .490

after full length sizing they measure .479

Does this sound like too much of a squeeze? If it is I really dont know what to do because this die wont crank any tighter (for a looser feel)....silly but you'd think counter-clockwise would be looser but it isnt.


Russell, I think you've hit the proverbial nail on the head :wink:


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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I'm assuming you adjust the smaller nut at the top that takes a 1/2 wrench. And the die is set to factory specs on the press. I've noticed since the initial usage of this equip that the cases come out of the die with a "polished" look (longitudinally speaking)


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Perferator,
What you are doing is called "working" the brass. If you set your dies as reccommended in the instructions (against the shell holder) it will completely size the cases. In doing this you work the brass down, then when you fire, you expand it up. Each firing/reload will cause the cases to grow!
What you need to do is unscrew the die 5-6 turns, hold it there, and screw the locking ring down against the press. This will reduce the amount you size the case. Once you run a case through the die, then take it to your gun and see if it fits the chamber. If it does, then proceed with the other steps; but if it doesn't screw the die down another turn and size the case again. Repeat one turn at a time, until the case chambers easily.
This procedure will get the die adjusted so you aren't working the brass too much. If your reloads aren't being used in more than your one gun, there's no need for full length case resizing. If they are used in others, then make sure they fit all the guns involved, and set the die for the tightest chamber.
Hope this helps.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
MarlinMan, that helps me understand. I thank you for your help. Will do as you suggest and go with it. This is the only rifle in this cartridge so I can adjust and leave it.

Thanx, all of you.



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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I backed the die out until it would no longer de-cap then adjusted it back in a bit.

By the looks of the cartridges and the way it feels when backing out the case it seems like it is going to work for me. I didnt see anymore signs of heavy case-working such as wrinkles.

Time will tell but I think we got it!


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Perferator said:
I backed the die out until it would no longer de-cap then adjusted it back in a bit.

By the looks of the cartridges and the way it feels when backing out the case it seems like it is going to work for me. I didnt see anymore signs of heavy case-working such as wrinkles.

Time will tell but I think we got it!


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Perf,
Good to hear! With the Lee decapper on the FL that too can be adjusted, just takes a FIRM tightening of the collet. Another approach is to get the Lee decapper only die and remove the entire unit from ur FL die, and they also make a 'manual' decapper, which is just a pin and a block and you can knock out the primer with a light hammer blow.
There's lots of mix and match you can do with dies/cases, the criteria being what works in your particular chamber.
Interestin' isn't it!
Glad to be of some assistance.
Cheers,
R*@
 

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I use a neck die on my 45/70 cases and have to trim every third time. I don't mind doing that because I can trim 50 cases in 15 minutes. Before I trim a batch, I pull a few cases and check them with an RCBS case master for thinning at the base. If those are "clear", then the batch gets trimmed and are ready to go. If the cases get tight I'll pull out a F/L die, but that happens after maybe 6 firings and I'll probably chuck the brass at that point anyhow.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
That's about the amount of reloads I get out of a case before it needs trimming, too. Are these loads medium power (a few gr's off max)?

It looks like I'm going to toss away the WW cases that I was using for the hotter H4198 loads (see above for load info) because they are showing some narrowing down by the head. They are looking like the cases posted in the big bore forum under the "cases" thread. They have been trimmed about 3 times. Paperclip trick showed no inconsistencies of the inner case.

The R-P cases are behaving nicely in the sizing but I'll probably tinker with the die again just to see if I can minimize the brass stressing. The lighter 44gr load of IMR4198 is working well for accuracy and this will be my deer load this fall.


Thanx for helping a fellow shooter/hunter.

Gotta love that 45-70!


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