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I did some research here and elsewhere before trying to find powder for my Marlin 1895 LTD. "4198" kept coming up as an accurate powder with a versatile range from nice target loads to full power hunting loads. So I bought some HODGDON 4198 when I got the chance. Starline cases are sized, belled & primed, ready for powder. I'd done my research and had data for a 405 grain lead RNFP from the Hodgdon site and my Lyman manual.

Wait a minute! The Lyman manual only has data for IMR-4198, not the Hodgdon powder. Thank goodness I double checked before going out to the workshop. Now I've read here that 33 grains of "4198" is a proven accuracy load for this bullet & rifle. But which 4198 are we talking about?

Sorry for the long post. My two questions are:

1) Is the 33 grain "traditional" load with the Hodgdon or the IMR "4198"

2) Why would the data for lead bullets be so close with slightly heavier charges of IMR-4198 while the jacketed data be the opposite with Hodgdon-4198 data showing significantly higher charges?

The Hodgdon site has data for BOTH 4198 powders for my 405 grain lead bullet under the "Trapdoor" cartridge specs. OK. IMR min 30.0 grains with max of 32.0 grains. H-4198 min 27.0 grains with max of 31.0 grains.

Data from Oregon Trail for their 405 grain LRNFP bullet has much lower starting points both in terms of powder and velocity than the Hodgdon data. This data is supposed to be for Marlin lever actions: IMR-4198 min 22.0 @ 1,125 and max 31.0 @ 1,515. H-4198 min also 22.0 but @ 1,018 and max 30.0 @ 1,410. I'm guessing that the max loads are a function of best velocity with their bullet, but I don't like guessing when it comes to figuring out how much powder to put in a case.

My Hornady manual adds to the confusion. For 1895 data, they show both H-4198 and IMR-4198 but the loads aren't even close. Stranger still, Hornady's powder charges for Hodgdon-4198 are substantially higher than the IMR-4198 loads. For a 350 grain jacketed bullet, the max is 45.3 grains of IMR-4198 at 1,900 fps (ouch) but Hornady shows a max load of 48.4 grains of Hodgdon-4198 to get the same velocity.

I've got Trapdoor data for my Hodgdon-4198 powder and will load up based on that data. Max velocity is about 1,400 fps which should be adequate with this bullet even though Penn says it's good up to 2,000 fps. However, it seems unusual that their load data for a lead bullet shows a slightly smaller charge for H-4198 than it does for IMR-4198 while Hornday's data for a jacketed bullet has much higher powder charges for the Hornady-4198. Note: the same disparity holds true for 300 grain lead versus jacketed bullets and these 2 data sources.

Last question: Where can I find data for my 1895 for lead bullets as opposed to the Trapdoor only data from Hodgdon? My Hornday, Sierra and Lyman manuals don't help. Jacketed data only in the first two and Lyman only shows IMR-4198 data for some reason.
 

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Good question..........I've seen many recipes that only state the powder as 4198.
 

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The two 4198s are similar, but not identical. Believe i heard that Hogdon has bought IMR and the rest of the duplicates will soon go away, 4895, 4198, and the rest. They will just be Hogdon.

For now, make sure that you pay attention to the proper loads, H or IMR 4198. From what I've seen, the loads are close, and any large difference between the two is likely due to the final estimated velocity of the load.

I happen to have both IMR (just a little from may years ago) and H 4198, which is what is available around here.

Bear in mind that much of the powder availble through to the 60s was WWII surplus that the companies still had in stock. In those days, it could be bought at hardware stores, scooped out of a barrel into a paper sack for $1/ pound or less. Probably both IMR and H made 4198, 4895, and others, and labeled it as such. For the military weapons it was likly "close enough for government standards".
 

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I found that the Lee 2nd Ed. load data was more helpful to me shooting lead. I only load from a manual. I load for Marlin 1895 loads and not the trapdoor. I currently use ACCUR 5744. I'm new to reloading with limited supplies. Trapdoor loads give you more choices as far as powder selection goes and won't beat up your shoulder as much. If you are stuck (not a bad situation) with a stockpile of 4198 (H or IMR) there is no reason not to load up trapdoor loads and enjoy.
 

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H4198 and IMR 4198 are right next to each other on the burn rate chart with H4198 being a little slower. I've always assumed there's no significant difference between the two. I have almost mixed the two up before when a recipe called for IMR and I grabbed the H, but I stopped myself before I loaded one.
Now if you mistake Accurate No.7 for RL7 you'll have a problem.
 

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The two 4198s are similar, but not identical. Believe i heard that Hogdon has bought IMR and the rest of the duplicates will soon go away, 4895, 4198, and the rest. They will just be Hogdon.

For now, make sure that you pay attention to the proper loads, H or IMR 4198. From what I've seen, the loads are close, and any large difference between the two is likely due to the final estimated velocity of the load.

I happen to have both IMR (just a little from may years ago) and H 4198, which is what is available around here.

Bear in mind that much of the powder availble through to the 60s was WWII surplus that the companies still had in stock. In those days, it could be bought at hardware stores, scooped out of a barrel into a paper sack for $1/ pound or less. Probably both IMR and H made 4198, 4895, and others, and labeled it as such. For the military weapons it was likly "close enough for government standards".
they have already eliminated the H-4227 and now just producing IMR-4227,

unfortunately I shot two wildcats, that I have been loading with H-4227 since 1975 and now have to work up new loads with another powder as soon as I exhaust my supply of H-4227
 

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Always remember the basic’s, even two different batches of the same powder may not be exactly the same, so always use starting loads and look for pressure signs with any new batch if don’t have a chronograph. Remember also that everyone’s pressure transducer used for testing maximum loads are not calibrated exactly alike. Hence one of the reasons for the variances in load data from book to book, even year to year. It still comes down to the reasonability falls on the reloader, the books are just to get you in a safe range, then you need to fine tune your loads for performance.
 

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here's another thought: a friend said he wouldn't use h4350 in his loads because it was hotter than the imr 4350 he was used to. i checked, and he was using a lee loader scoop to measure them, not a scale. tried it at home and found out the h was denser than the imr, so a scoop of it weighed more than a same-sized scoop of the imr--he was loading more weight with the h. fast forward a bit to the modern loads, diluted with lawyer spit, and you may find that the same thing's going on with some of the other powders--same weight would be fine, but same volume wouldn't, and them that use volume still exist. might be worth checking.
mind yer topknot!
windy
 

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Now if you mistake Accurate No.7 for RL7 you'll have a problem.
Well, you'll only have it once.

Over many years, the 4198's have been ranked neck and neck, and depending on the manual, bullet, primer and firearm, they change places a bit. H4198 is generally ranked slower. As few shooters start working on a load from the top, most never see much difference.
 

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I have been holding my breath for the past 4 days waiting to see if H or IMR is the most preferred. I had planned on using H with 405 Laser Cast in my 45-70, does it matter ? Thanks, Jerry
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I have been holding my breath for the past 4 days waiting to see if H or IMR is the most preferred. I had planned on using H with 405 Laser Cast in my 45-70, does it matter ? Thanks, Jerry
From the data I got both off the Hodgdon website and from Oregon Trail, there's not much difference in the recommended powder charges for lead bullets. From Hodgdon's burn rate chart, the two 4198s are right on top of each other. However, there are significant differences in powder charges between the two 4198s in every data source I have for jacketed bullets. (I still don't understand that.)

Bottom line, it may not matter which 4198 you use but you do need to use the data for that specific powder.
 

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I've only tried IMR4198 in 30-30 using Ranch Dog cast bullets and it is very accurate. The only thing I don't care for is how long the granules are. It looks like you extended a mechanical pencil too far and then the lead broke off when you tried to write, then repeat about 3 million times until you have a pound of it. My powder measure doesn't just cut some granules, it crunches when I rotate the drum. I'm told that H4198 is a shorter powder, I'll probably try it next.
 
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