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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This is in continuation of a --- debate? --- that got started in the Big Bore Rifles category, in which I was told it is not true death has occured by tasers, at least in healthy people. How an officer is to guess whether one is healthy enough to take a tasering or not I do not know, but pay attention to the age groups of the deaths in the very random and incomplete list below. Yes, some of the people had health issues, and some were drugged up on something else, but not all.

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http://www.infowars.com/print/ps/police_back_tasers.htm
Man Dies After Police Use Stun Gun on Him
Associated Press | November 5 2004
FORT WORTH, Texas -- A man suspected of trying to illegally hook up electrical service died after police shocked him with a stun gun when he was found hiding at an apartment complex, authorities said.

Robert Guerrero, 21, was pronounced dead Tuesday at John Peter Smith Hospital where he was taken after officers subdued him with a Taser stun gun and he stopped breathing, police said.
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http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/opinion/bookman/2005/062305.html
DA's excuse in Taser death unconvincing
Published on: 06/23/05
Gwinnett County District Attorney Danny Porter has once again closed his inquiry into the death of Frederick Williams, a mentally ill man who died after being repeatedly shocked by a Taser at the Gwinnett County jail.

As Porter explains it, one grand jury has already looked into the case, and it would be unfair to bring the matter before a second panel.
~snip!~
The problem lies with Porter's claim of a "valid, legal grand jury decision." In the incident that led to his death, a helpless Williams was hit repeatedly with a 50,000-volt stun gun even though at the time, his hands were cuffed behind his back, his feet were manacled to a restraint chair and he was being held down by half a dozen deputies.

At best, the repeated Tasings may have been unnecessarily abusive; at worst, they may have led to his death.
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http://www.infowars.net/Pages/Feb05/260205taserdeath.html
TASER DEATH: 5 officers facing internal charges
Toldeo Blade, Ohio | Feb 26 2005
Five Toledo police officers including a sergeant are facing administrative charges for improperly handcuffing a man who died after he was shocked nine times with a Taser. Police and Lucas County jail authorities were involved in the incidents. The police department's internal affairs bureau concluded the officers did not use excessive force in the arrest Jan. 31 of Jeffrey Turner, 41, and that the use of a Taser at the time of his arrest was justified, Chief Mike Navarre said yesterday.

However, the investigation showed that in transporting Turner to the jail, he was handcuffed behind his back and those cuffs were connected to oversized cuffs that were placed on his ankles, which is contrary to department policy.
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http://www.infowars.com/articles/ps/tasers_death_ruled_homicide.htm
Taser Death Ruled a Homicide
ABC 13 | April 13, 2005
Today, the Lucas County coroner ruled the death of Jeffrey Turner a homicide.

Turner was the man who died after being stunned by a taser approximately nine times in January.

The coroner also determined that the shocks delivered by the arresting Toledo police officers were not the direct cause of death. He attributed that to Turner's pre-existing heart condition, specifically hypertension, coupled with the taser shocks and use of force by the employees at the jail.
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http://www.fox30online.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=3F317088-F7E0-488
2-9148-8340A3A12612
Taser Death in Lake City.
Last Update: 3/12/2005 10:07:05 AM
Milton Woolfolk from Lake City died after police shot him with a taser. Woolfolk had a history of psychiatric problems and around noon on Friday, Columbia county sheriff's deputies attempted to take him into custody for a psychiatric evaluation. Deputies say Woolfolk also had a history of physical confrontations with police and, in this instance, they say he refused.

After several verbal warnings, deputies used taser guns to subdue him. At one point, deputies say Woolfolk began pulling the taser prongs out of his skin. Deputies then wrestled him to the ground and handcuffed him.

Soon after deputies noticed he wasn't moving much and Woolfolk was taken to a nearby hospital. A short time later he was pronounced dead.

A full investigation is now underway to find out all the details. An autopsy is being performed and the results are expected Saturday.

The Columbia County Sheriff's office says since they started using tasers in 200[sic], they've had three deaths from tasers.
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http://vancouver.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=bc_taser-surrey20050630
Taser death in Surrey
Last updated Jun 30 2005 07:25 PM PDT
CBC News
The RCMP say an domestic dispute in Surrey has ended with the death of a 41-year-old man, after he was shot with a Taser gun.

Police say they had received a call that screaming was coming from a home in the 13400-block of 84A Ave – and that the caller was concerned about the safety of the family.

Spokesperson Const. Marc Searle says when the officers arrived, they were confronted by the man who was highly agitated and combative.

Searle says the man then attacked a woman in the home – and that when police attempted to arrest the male, he began fighting with the Mounties.

They called for backup, and tried to pepper spray the man in an effort to bring him under control without harming him – but without success.

The man was then shot with Taser, but still continued to fight the officers. Police say they were trying to get the man under control when they realized he had stopped breathing.

The officers began administering CPR, and he was taken to hospital where he was pronounced dead.
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personal note: the above incident certainly warranted using a taser. The man died nonetheless.
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http://www.klas-tv.com/Global/story.asp?S=1662679&nav=168YM5x6
Taser Death Investigation Continues
(Feb. 23) -- A Las Vegas man is dead after a scuffle with police that involved a taser gun. While police do not believe the taser gun caused the man's death, his family says they're convinced it's a case of excessive force. Take a closer look at what happened and just how often police officers use taser guns.

Metro officers have been using taser guns since August 2003. The goal is to reduce the number of injuries for officers and suspects. But one family says it shouldn't have been used and they say it may have been a factor in costing their son his life.

"Why? Why did they hurt my child like that?" Joyce Charleston still can't believe her son is dead. William Lomax died after a scuffle with security guards and police Friday night. His sister, Jean Charleston, said, "That's my brother. I love him and he'll be truly missed."

Police say they were forced to use a taser gun several times against Lomax who they believe was under the influence of drugs. Lomax later died at a local hospital.
~snip!~
The tasers send out electrical shock which debilitates a suspect without any long-lasting effects. "We'd like to reduce the number of injuries not only to the public when the officer is forced to use force, but also to the officer," Captain Owens continued.

From August to February, Metro officers used taser guns 128 times. 14 suspects were injured and required hospitalization and 53 suspects needed some type of first aid.


Metro says there were no serious injuries.
~snip!~
According to Taser, the company that makes the device, 2,900 police agencies use taser guns and it has reduced police use of lethal force by 78-percent.

Metro doesn't have its officers use tasers on each other during training because several officers fell after they were jolted and were injured. Metro says it can't afford to take officers off the streets. The North Las Vegas Police department gives its officers the option to experience being tazed. Metro is waiting for the coroner's results to come back for the official cause of William Lomax's death. That will take several weeks.
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http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/apnews/stories/062005/D8ARISD80.shtml
SCLC to protest over Taser death case
By DANIEL YEE
Associated Press Writer
ATLANTA - A civil rights group said Monday that it will launch a series of protests against the suburban Atlanta county where a prosecutor declined to revisit the case of a jailed black man who died days after he was stunned with a Taser.

Atlanta-based Southern Christian Leadership Conference previously had asked that District Attorney Danny Porter reopen the investigation of the death of Frederick Williams, who died in May 2004 after deputies stunned him with a Taser gun while in jail.

The civil rights group wanted him to recommend a special grand jury be convened to re-examine whether the deputies should be held accountable for the 31-year-old Lawrenceville man's death.
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http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=327392
Prosecutor: No Criminal Charges Against Police in Death of Pa. Man Who Was Shot With Taser
The Associated Press
EASTON, Pa. Dec 13, 2004 — A prosecutor said Monday he will not press criminal charges against police officers in the death of an eastern Pennsylvania man whose heart failed after he was shot with a Taser stun gun.

Kris J. Lieberman, 32, died in June as Bushkill Township police officers tried to restrain him after he was found partly clothed, yelling and rolling on the ground, apparently delirious.

At least one of the officers fired a Taser to shock Lieberman with 50,000 volts. The electricity is supposed to temporarily paralyze a person but do no permanent harm.

Northampton County District Attorney John Morganelli said an autopsy determined the death was probably caused by a combination of stresses on Lieberman's heart, including his agitated psychological state, the attempts to restrain him and a high level of cocaine in his blood.

Morganelli said there was no evidence the Taser malfunctioned or that police officers acted criminally or violated department policy.

Amnesty International said in a report in late November that at least 74 people have died in the United States and Canada in the past four years after being shocked with Tasers.

Police officials and the stun gun's manufacturer maintain that the devices are safe, and say they have prevented hundreds of fatalities and injuries by giving officers a tool more humane than a baton, and less deadly than a handgun, to restrain crime suspects.
 

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The whole issue is how does LE restrain someone who is being arrested and is uncooperative? Restraining someone and taking them into custody is justified when they are in clear violation of the law (doesn't matter if it is "just" traffic). In the past we just got a bunch of bodies on the person and got the job done. Now we tase the person. Law enforcement is trained to escalate the amount of force comensurate with the resistence or threat. I think if you were to look at the full record that many more people have died while being physically restrained than those who have been tased. So these fine officers should have dragged the women out of her vehicle, thrown her to the ground, half nelsoned her, put a knee in her back and cuffed her? It was clear that in this particular instance the women continued to be uncooperative even after she was tased.

Bottom line: If you do not comply with a lawful order of a law enforcement officer expect to be brought into compliance. Even if it is for just a silly little traffic violation.
 

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Bottom line: If you do not comply with a lawful order of a law enforcement officer expect to be brought into compliance. Even if it is for just a silly little traffic violation.
Going a step farther: I'd do my level best to comply with anything an armed, peeved LEO was asking me to do. We could sort out the legality of it later. People screw with these guy/gals and wonder why they get hurt :roll:
 

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Given that most LEO's are respectable people.. I would agree.. Given a few are asswipes.. Shoot first. LEO's have over stepped there bounds on more than one occasion, and One occasion is too many.. Handcuffing a Child in School???? Nope... I will show respect if I get it.. if not they will have to do what they think is right , as I will be doing what I can to protect myself from there abuse..
 

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A persons heartbeat is a controlled shock. Any time you introduce an external electrical shock you take the chance of stopping a normally beating heart. If LEO's are going to use these things they need training on restarting someones heart. There are a lot of good LEO's out there but there are a few that have no business wearing a badge.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I am glad to see I am not totally all alone in my concerns / point of view here.

Tasers have their good points and their bad points, besides the point that the officer's judgment in using them is a big factor.

One thing I was wondering, and this may belong on the other thread, I don't know, but when an officer shoots a taser at someone, the needles or whatever land on the person and stick, and he / or she / continues to hold down the "trigger" for as long as s/he wants the shock to continue, right? And s/he can release the trigger after a very short blast and stop the shock, and then squeeze the trigger again if the short shock wasn't getting the point across?

And, if you are shooting someone for being belligerent at a traffic stop, especially a woman (or a MAN!) who has probably not been tasered before, you can give a VERY short blast to get their attention and then stop to see if that works, right?

I was just thinking the woman's screams made it sound like she'd gotten blasted a lot more than necessary, and she was screaming in terror of more pain due to that, in other words, she wasn't just being punished, as well as TORTURED, she was being TERRORIZED.

The use of tasers on civilians like this to me puts the whole thing in a brand new dimension, such as we've never seen before.

Some of us are very uncomfortable with it. There are othe things that are coming our way, too, such as the big microwave guns that can shock a whole crowd at once --- to "diffuse the crowd," peacefully, of course, and without any injury or long-term damage, of course.

I know I'm straying around here, but I see these weapons in the hands of officers as being related topics -- it changes the whole relationship, in general, anyways, between police officers and the general public ---the CITIZENS, as they may differentiate us now from law enforcement.

Do the benefits outweigh the risks of having the use of tasers? Sometimes yes, sometimes no!
 

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It's not a good idea to let "feelings" dictate Law Enforcement any more than it is to let the UN and France dictate war policy :wink: Personally, I'm a little sorry they have tasers. Bad people stop doing bad things when it becomes more expensive/painful than doing bad things. When I was a kid, a little "Beat and Release" kept alot of youngsters out of jail. You would not desolve a standing army because a dozen bad apples were making terrorists wear undies on their heads and you won't change law enforcement because of a bad apple. Our crime rate is a direct result of letting people get away with it and not causing them enough pain when they got caught. Man, I got treated worse in basic than the average J.D. does these days :evil:
 

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So, you would rather they just go straight to guns? Or maybe batons, that do permanent damage on a regular basis?
Ain’t nobody perfect on a full time basis, LEO or citizens. I’ve had a few close calls, and no, I ain’t never been arrested. Getting past the critical moment is the thing; get it off the street and sort it out at the station is a good rule of thumb (was military police). Get past that moment, without nothing permanent happening, and usually, nothing comes of the situation. Point is to stop things before they go too far.
Verbal skills are the most important. If things go further, I’d rather they went to a taser than something of, more frequently, permanent consequences. Even back when I was a young one, verbal skills were taught and emphasized.
I wasn’t doing nothing wrong or out of the ordinary my close calls; think the LOE’s were a bit out of line, but it all came out OK. We talked through it, my training came in handy. People got to cut each other some slack; no harm, no foul, sort of thing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Yeah, I agree with you to a point, Tubby, but there you go saying "a dozen bad apples were making terrorists wear undies on their heads" --- and there was a WHOLE lot more to the story than that, and I'd be happy to discuss it in a topic of its own if people are interested, but I won't let a comment go by making that much light of it go unchallenged. There were deaths by torture, accident or no or both, and there were prisoners who were NOT terrorists at all, even CHILDREN. It was a horrifying example of how the United States are not necessarily the "good guys" in any given situation. But, like I said, I'd save that for another topic, if you want to have it in your forum.

I know people can't be allowed to just get away with stuff. I read a real scary narrative about a teacher who was subbing in Brittain and how the classrooms were TOTALLY out of control with their behavior. There just were no consequences, period, no matter what they did.

The taser is a brand-new toy that's been thrown out there with a whole lot more to still be learned about it. There will be lots more stories to be told, and possibly some adjustments made as to how, when, and why it's used.
 

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Miss Nomer, whatever direction this thread takes, do not try to draw a moral equivalent between muslim terrorists, the people who support them and Americans who died on 911 and our sericemen and women. If they can save one American life by hooking up 10,000 rags to electric wires, I have only one question: AC or DC :evil: I despise the "Blame America First" crowd.
 

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Miss Nomer and TTT,
Let’s not read more thoughts into each other’s posts.
I agree that we had significant problems with friend identification, not because of bad people so much as confused people.
One of the things that makes us the good guys is that we do go over our actions, what we did right and what we did wrong. That is one of the things others admire about us the most. And envy; they tried that in their countries, they’d disappear.
Most Iraqi’s seem to buy our story about why we’re there. That says something about us and our general deportment.
Things were done that we regret. I suspect that they were done because our people were sent into a place they didn’t understand any better than they were being understood. The point of going into the unfortunate incidents is to understand how to avoid them in the future; not to dump on America, but to make it work better. Tends to keep being blindsided to a minimum.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
tubbythetuba said:
Miss Nomer, whatever direction this thread takes, do not try to draw a moral equivalent between muslim terrorists, the people who support them and Americans who died on 911 and our sericemen and women. If they can save one American life by hooking up 10,000 rags to electric wires, I have only one question: AC or DC :evil: I despise the "Blame America First" crowd.
Don't worry, Tubby, I'll go to a forum or three in a different universe from yours to discuss who was behind 911 and what it means.

Our soldiers do what they have to do, they wear their uniforms and do their duty and follow their orders. What happened at Abu Graib was a horrible twisted example of what can go wrong. I by no means blame our military for the decisions made by their leaders, i.e., the U.S. Government. Whether they were following orders or not has been in the news -- I believe from what I have read that they WERE, but I sure don't know that for sure! They all don their uniforms with their hearts in the right place, I truly assume. But read some examples of what they have to say about the US in Iraq when, and if, they return alive.

If you don't believe my statement that the "rags" included innocent Iraqi citizens including just kids, and if you don't believe that a number of them were tortured to DEATH, maybe it wasn't on purpose that they were supposed to die --- but to me it is QUITE beside the point whether the deaths were accidental or not --- well, I have no reason to argue with you, because you can look it up for yourself or not.

If you do, indeed, consider them "rags," and if you think they are responsible for 911, and, possibly going out on a limb here, that THAT's why we are in Iraq, then, I peacefully throw in the towel on this conversation.

There is a very wide gulf between us and I can respect the differences, but I found your post disturbing enough to have to comment on it.


I know this isn't a world politics forum, and people can get real hot under the collar disagreeing on such things, myself included, and for what purpose? We're all learning day by day, until we die, what is really reality out there. I am pretty sure all of us are fooled, to one degree or another, again myself included.
 

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Hmmm,

After some careful thought I have decided that wearing panties on ones head could be some downright fun. I suppose the fun could be in how they get there... :mrgreen: :lol:

Dave 8)
 

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VTDW-Be sure to avoid the ones with the brown skidmarks in them. :shock: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :mrgreen:
 

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Miss Nomer, take a stand. Get off the fence. If war, and the carnage that surrounds it, makes you uneasy it's understandable...just stay out of the way of the professionals as they do their jobs. The day is going to come when the enemy (rags) hit us again and kill thousands again or maybe chop off a few more heads on TV for ya. Except for some unimaginable, brutal action, the USA could well be divided up between the Japs and the Germans right now. You mentioned another universe; try the muslim one......you'd have been stoned, or gang raped or fed thru Saddam's trash shredder for dareing to state your opinion. The "horrid" Americans have brought more freedom to Iraq than they've had in decades. If it's not going perfectly, remember that we had to stay in Europe for decades to stem the commies from taking over after WWII. I can't believe that someone that can pen a cogent thought as well as you would buy into all this anti conservative anti American crap being dished up by liberals and their media. You think this is personal, it is not. These are cold, hard facts and this is the way the world really is. You live by the set of rules given to you, change them, or die. The only way to change the rules right now is to make the other side die. That's the way it is and forever shall be. If Ghandi were POTUS in 1941, we'd be speaking another language and probably not even here.
 

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Didn't catch the news today before writing the above. I guess the peace loving muslims have expressed their ire in London today :evil:
 

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TTT,
Please don’t use derogatory ethnic terms. It is beneath you and detracts from your arguments. I support your freedom to do so, but think it hurts, rather than helps, your points. Also the problem of focusing our anger at the wrong people. Much of what went on at Abu Graib was focusing our anger at the wrong people.

We train our military to kill, destroy and secure. Then we send them on nation building operations in places where they have no clue as to either language or culture. What’s their next mission, marriage counseling? The war was easy, but the peace is far harder than what we did in either Europe or Japan. Contrary to the last 15 years of propaganda, I mean news, reports; most Serbs and Croatians actually like each other.

Remember Iran, who generally hates us, held a candle light vigil for the victims of 911. It’s not an ethnic group or religion against us, but very evil, and stupid, individuals. Would also mention that our efforts in Iraq have received quite a bit of help from Iran, to both of our embarrassment.

We stay the course with intelligence and good will, and a whole lot of Grace from God, and we just might accomplish something amazing. We turn tail, as congress is already beginning to and,… seen the standard of living in Vietnam lately?

Miss Nomer,
Unless you think this thread has run it’s course and might as well switch topics, please start another thread.
 

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Silvertip: Sorry, I'm just not interested in humanizing this particular enemy. All they want is to kill us. We should return the favor ASAP.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
silvertip said:
Miss Nomer,
Unless you think this thread has run it’s course and might as well switch topics, please start another thread.
about what? :?:

I wasn't particularly trying to steer the topic away from taser deaths. I hope to see some evidence that Mr. Bear came over and read this --- well, my first post with the links, at least.

I don't think the topic that we strayed into is welcome on this board.
 

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Miss Nomer said:
Yeah, I agree with you to a point, Tubby, but there you go saying "a dozen bad apples were making terrorists wear undies on their heads" --- and there was a WHOLE lot more to the story than that, and I'd be happy to discuss it in a topic of its own if people are interested, but I won't let a comment go by making that much light of it go unchallenged. There were deaths by torture, accident or no or both, and there were prisoners who were NOT terrorists at all, even CHILDREN. It was a horrifying example of how the United States are not necessarily the "good guys" in any given situation. But, like I said, I'd save that for another topic, if you want to have it in your forum.

I know people can't be allowed to just get away with stuff. I read a real scary narrative about a teacher who was subbing in Brittain and how the classrooms were TOTALLY out of control with their behavior. There just were no consequences, period, no matter what they did.

The taser is a brand-new toy that's been thrown out there with a whole lot more to still be learned about it. There will be lots more stories to be told, and possibly some adjustments made as to how, when, and why it's used.
I was drawing an analogy.......I dare say it was someone else to took the dive into another area. As an aside, I notice that you really seem to enjoy bridging the subject to avoid uncomfortable or unknowledgeable subjects/points. There is a direct relation between why our wars against both crime/thuggery and muslim extremists are not going well. Both are being delt with by misled authorities, or pressured by misled political opponents that somehow think that the reason evil exists is because good people somehow do not treat them the proper way :roll:
 
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