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Discussion Starter #1
A little input would be much appreciated. Seems like I cant get off more than 50 to 60 rounds in my 336, without seeing my groups start to deteriorate. I use 170 gr jrn bullets, over 3031 powder as a consistant load for the range. Lately, it seems that I'm getting more copper fouling than in the past. The rifle is only a year old, but I do shoot it a good 40 + rounds a week. It has been in the high 20's to low 30's here in upstate NY lately, but I cannot believe that the temperature outdoors should have anything to do with this, or am I wrong. Second item is can anyone tell me if they have had better success with less copper fouling from one brand of bullet over the others. Third, would anybody be willing to share their info about their best accuracy reload for a 336 in 30-30. Thanks up front for your responses.

Steve

Eph 1:7
 

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I may be barking up the wrong tree, but -- how do you clean? It may be that you're not getting it really, squeaky clean, and sometimes it seems that the merest trace left in the bore will "attract" more.

I'll also say that I own lots of rifles, and most of them will begin to show a bit of a downhill slide in accuracy after 50 rounds. If I'm going to the range for a high-volume shooting session, I will take along what I need to give the bore at least a partial cleaning somewhere along the way.
 

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I'm just getting into reloading but, I've heard that Reloder 15 has less copper fouling. I'm sure somebody else will chime in on it.
 
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I run a brush and cleaner through mine every 15 rounds. Always have, always will.
 

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I agree, 50 rounds is quite a number to not begin to see some deteriotion in accuracy. I would always clean after no more than 20 shots. I have used H335 powder for 3030 both in a Model 336 and Win94, burns clean and I got good accuracy (full load w/ 150gr bullet). Could kick myself for gettin rid of that 336, but i looked at another last night and hope to pick one up soon.
Craig
 

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Yes, I agree , 50 rounds is to much shooting w/o a good cleaning. I clean about every 10-15 rounds . And this may be very elemenary , but i wipe the brass cleaning rod off to after each trip down the barrel when I pull the brush out or you may carry more crud back down into the barrel , I hate to bring that up , but I was guilty of that little overlook.
 

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Accuracy depends on a zillion variables. Powder and copper fouling are facts of life, but if what you seek most is accuracy, you have to clean the barrel frequently. When I test loads, I start with a barrel that's squeaky-clean, fire five fouling shots, and test four five-shot groups, slowly and carefully. Then it's time to clean again. I would never expect my rifle to deliver the best accuracy after more than 25 rounds. It might still shoot minute-of-deer, but it won't shoot its best unless it's almost clean. As was said, once it starts to foul, it fouls faster and faster with each shot.

I've tried a zillion copper solvents, and what I keep re-learning over and over again is that you have to clean out the powder fouling, then the copper, then the powder, then the copper, until it's really clean. That's the way it fouls, and that's the way it has to be cleaned. Yes, it's a lot of work. And yes, if you do it right, you'll be rewarded with groups that will make your eyes sparkle, your nose moist and cool, and your coat shine. But it's still a lot of work! As Mom always says, good things take more work. And as you all know, Mom is NEVER wrong. ;)

Just ask her.
 

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Firelap it and no more worries bro.

Dave 8)
 

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Ditto on the firelap, i did a ruger blackhawk & a rem 7400 rifle and it makes an incredible difference in cleaning and accuracy. Used bear tooth bullet supplies.

Dave, any idea how many rounds it would take for marlin stainless?
Craig
 

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SHIND444, I don't want to blow my own horn but go to my web site www.ultracoatingsinc.com and look at ultra bore coat. PM me if you have any questions, bill
 

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SmithAC said:
Ditto on the firelap, i did a ruger blackhawk & a rem 7400 rifle and it makes an incredible difference in cleaning and accuracy. Used bear tooth bullet supplies.

Dave, any idea how many rounds it would take for marlin stainless?
Craig
Craig, I always use 20 rounds when firelapping and that has always worked for me. For copper I use Sharpshooter's WipeOut as it is the best and easiest way to remove copper fouling I have found. As for lead, I have never had a barrel lead up or copper up enough to reduce accuracy once firelapped...never. Once the bores have had all the burrs and constrictions removed they are just awesome.

Dave 8)
 
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Just curious, Dave...

I've never fire-lapped or cold-lapped anything so make up your own mind regarding my expertise on the subject.

I'd be curious as to the advisability of lapping a micro-groove barrel. Is it something commonly done?

I mean, there's hardly any lands there to begin with, and lapping literally wears them down further to remove imperfections left over from the machine rifling process, correct?

???
 

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For copper fouling I dry brush, push a patch to remove the loose crud. Wet solvent brush being sure to move the brush up and down then move fwd in the bbl another 5 inches and make sure I overlap my previous brush strokes. Then another dry patch, then a wet solvent patch turn the bbl down into a bucket with newspaper in it to let it soak and drain, copper fouling will be evident by the green color the solvent leaves. I then dry patch and another wet patch and let it set again. Repeat until the green copper fouling is not evident on the newspaper.
 
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I use Sweet's and a few strokes with a stainless bore-brush if necessary.

I start with the dry brush for a maximum of 10 strokes and then a swab with Sweet's, let it sit for 10 or 20 minutes and then another swab and oiled/dry patches until the green is gone. Then I put on a light coat of Break-Free like always.

:)
 

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Sweets or Wipe Out works best for me for copper removal. Prefer Wipe Out brand.
 

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FWiedner said:
Just curious, Dave...

I've never fire-lapped or cold-lapped anything so make up your own mind regarding my expertise on the subject.

I'd be curious as to the advisability of lapping a micro-groove barrel. Is it something commonly done?

I mean, there's hardly any lands there to begin with, and lapping literally wears them down further to remove imperfections left over from the machine rifling process, correct?

???
Fred,

I never have had any problems. What happens is that the constrictions are removed and the bore will be the same size all the way thru in theory. Of course some metal is removed but the amount is negligible. Not all bores have constrictions and that is why we slug (run a lead sinker thru) the barrels. That tells us if there are constrictions, where they are and what size they are as well. Usually in dovetails and where the numbers/letters are stamped.

I would be happy to visit with you about it if you wish. Just let me know. The reason I decided to do it was because I am sooo anal and wanted sub MOA accuracy with cast boolits.



Dave 8)
 

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VTDW said:
Fred,

I never have had any problems. What happens is that the constrictions are removed and the bore will be the same size all the way thru in theory. Of course some metal is removed but the amount is negligible. Not all bores have constrictions and that is why we slug (run a lead sinker thru) the barrels. That tells us if there are constrictions, where they are and what size they are as well. Usually in dovetails and where the numbers/letters are stamped.

I would be happy to visit with you about it if you wish. Just let me know. The reason I decided to do it was because I am sooo anal and wanted sub MOA accuracy with cast boolits.


Dave 8)
What is this fire lapping you speak of and how would I do it and do I need it? Is it in the reference section. I only shoot copper jacketed as of now.
 

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I shot .360 148 grain WC's over 3.5 grains tight -group to fire-lap my 35 Rem MC barrel.It only took 9 shots with Beartooth lapping compound.No leading at all for dozens of shots.30 grains Vitt-133 puts my MTN MOLD 215GC bullets into a ragged hole at 50 yards.These cast bullets lightly engrave when chambering and are a perfect fit with a long bearing surface.Firelapping works great if done right.
 

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Another vote for "Sweets"

Cheers,
Mark.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I very much appreciate all of your responses. Perhaps I am too optimistic, in thinking that I can go through 50 rounds without a cleaning, and not have it affect accuracy. I can and will clean more often. As far as long term, I believe that I am going to fire lap both my 336 & 444P. I want to start shooting cast bullets. I went on the BT bullet web site, and there are articles published by Marshall Stanton, about fire lapping both Ballard Cut & Micro Groove barrels. Although my 444P does not seem to experience any copper fouling issues yet, (and I do shoot a lot of 300 gr jacketed bullets), I bought it used and it may allready have been done. Regarding the copper fouling issues, it seems that although after many intense cleaning sessions with brushes, patches, solvents, and a variety of techniques employeed, I can still see a very slight copper discoloration on the surface of the lands, useing a magnifying lense, even though I cant get any more copper discoloration on my solvent cleaning patches. Mabe I'm being to critical, I do not know. I guess time at the range will tell. Again, thank you all for your input.

Steve
Eph 1:7
 
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