[rhendrix]

I don't reload right now because I don't have the funds to get into it yet so I was wondering what you think about the Buffalo Bore 350gr. JFN or the 300gr. JHP for a deer and black bear round. I know they are expensive but I will not be using them to plink with only sighting in and then hunting.

I really like the 325gr. LE and want to try the new 250gr monoflex LE when it comes out but I was just wanting to try something else. Do any of you guys have any experience with the Buffalo Bore ammo? I don't think the recoil would be any stronger than the LE rounds but then I am not really recoil sensitive anyway especially when hunting.

 

[findrichard]

I used Buffalo Bore 300 grain HP bullets before Hornady's LE ammo became available. The recoil of the BB is noticeably more than the LE and for good reason as the BB bullet is moving 500fps faster (300 fps faster than the LE bullet's published speed which is exaggerated by about 200 fps according to independent test results). The BB 300 grain bullet is a Speer "hot-core" which is a bonded bullet, unlike the LE bullet. The Speer bullet was also designed to be used in the 458 win mag and therefore holds up much better at the higher velocities than the LE bullet does. This bullet will not fragment like the LE does and therefore provide better penetration and more reliable wound channel performance. The old adage, "you get what you pay for" is certainly true here. I am in the process of preparing to reload using the Speer 300 grain and hope to duplicate the BB bullet for less expense than the LE ammo. I am not bashing LE ammo here, it does quite well at what it was designed for and If you don't need a tough bullet then thanks to Hornady we can save some money on box ammunition. Also, expect the BB to print about 6" higher at 100 yards with your gun sighted in with the LE ammo.

Speer tells me the 350 grain bullet (which BB uses in their 350 grain load) is a tougher bullet than their 300 grain bullet and requires a minimum velocity of 1900 fps to get reliable expansion (1300 fps for their 300 grain bullet). BB used to call their ammo loaded with the 350 grain bullet their penetrator load designed for game up to 2,000 lbs. They no longer categorize their ammo as expansion or penetrator loads nor do they any longer list game weight limits.

 

[rhendrix]

Thanks a bunch. It sounds like a really good bullet. I think I will get a box or 2 of the 300s and try them out next deer season and bear season. I assume the results you are talking about were from the factory ammo or was it from ammo you loaded yourself?

 

[rhendrix]

It looks like from the Speer Reloading Manual that their loads don't even come close to the stats on the Buffalo Bore rounds. The only ones that do in the manual with those 2 bullets is the data on the Marlin 450. Is Buffalo Bore loading these 45-70 rounds to the 470 specs? I am sure that the 1895 45-70 will stand up to the pressure generated by these loads. I guess I just don't understand why Speer doesn't show the heavier load data for the 45-70.

When loading for the 1895 leverguns in 45-70, is it safe to load to the 450 specs?

 

[me]

Rhendrix the 450 is a belted cartridge (If I rember right) so you would go wrong fast .But to my point by the time you buy 4-5 boxes of bufflo or leverlution =$120-140 and I know how that hurts. I sympathize with you about the price of reloading but your 1/2 way there. Maby what we aught to do is find out how to get you late starters into some good used stuff. I know it's out there I just don't know where it's marketed I never see presses or scales at gun shows.
I don't know how much you shoot. but I'm loading for 3 7mm weatherby today I can load 100 rnds for $50 or buy 5 boxs for
$240-$325 that rcbs partner press starter kit I bought for $100 years ago has more than paid for it's self even considering I bought a rockchucker press. Remember 30-30,243,270,30-06 10 yrs ago just $5-$6 a box.

 

[rhendrix]

I know I need to be reloading and I will get there. I have already started preparing by getting several reloading manuals to read and I find them so different from each other. It appears that the Lee manual has more useful info giving a larger range of 45-70 data and evern giving the pressures with each load. It appears that the Lee manual even shows loads in the 25,000psi range for the lever gun that other manuals show only for the 450 Marlin. I know these books have to be on the cautious side because of liability but it is amazing to me how far they are apart.

 

[preacher]

I like Buffalo Bore ammo for some apllications/calibers, just never shot any in 45-70. I started reloading back in '76, for a Ruger 77 in .280 remington. I did what you are doing, started out with a few manuals, read, got the theory down. Then I bought a Lee classic (pound em in/pound em out) loader, but added an RCBS Balance beam scale, and a hand primer, and a hammer with hard plastic/rubber ends from the Auto Parts Store. I shot my first long range buck with ammo made that way!
A 45-70 is just as easy to load with one of those kits, and if I were doing it today, I would replace the balance beam scale with a digital one, and add an inexpensive caliper; that's it. I think the new kits even come with a hand primer now? You could save money "now", have a ball, learn a new hobby ( on cold winter nights, all you can do with factory ammo is pour it all out on the bed, and run your fingers through it like gold coins, whereas you could "load ammo" and dream like the rest of us,ha)
Good luck, and BTW, it took me awhile to find a Reloading Outlet that had any Speer 300 Hot Cors ( they laber them "Plinkers" now, but it's the same ol hot cor)

 

[rhendrix]

Thanks for the advise Preacher. When you say buy a kit, I assume you are talking about the Lee Hand Loaders?

I have been looking at the Lee Turret kit. Seems reasonably priced and easy to expand into other calibers. It is a progressive hobbie I know. Then you have to buy a chronagraph or you have no idea what your loads are doing.

I know all about the progressive hobbies. I started tying flies years ago and now I have more supplies than most stores do. I told myself I could save money and found out that tying flies is not about saving money. It is trying to create something a little differnet that you can get a fish to rise to. I am sure reloading is about the same. I used to load shot shells because I did a lot of dove shooting but now I don't have that set up and I don't shotgun that much anymore. I will bite the bullet one day and get into reloading I am sure. Money has just been tight since our Government has stepped in and made things "better". I lost my job over 2 years ago and even with 36 years of experience in the finance business (mortgage, stocks, bonds, mutual funds, etc.) I find that no one wants to hire a man with as much experience as I have at 63 years of age even though I feel like I am in my 30s. Oh well, big brother knows best. ??? : :'(

 

[findrichard]

rhendrix, yes the BB bullet leaves the guide gun barrel at 2300 fps. I have not started reloading yet for no good reason, just lazy I guess. It cost about the same as a box of Buffalo Bore (BB) ammo to start reloading according to the article at the link below (well worth a look):

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/51

The Hodgdson website shows max loading data for a modern lever gun using a 300 grain sierra jacketed HP and 60 grains of H4198. This load produces a muzzle velocity of 2424 fps from a 24" barrel and generates an average pressure of 40,000 CUP. I can find no other published load data that comes close to 2400 fps. The sierra bullet is not a bonded bullet like the speer bullet used in the BB ammo. BB's 350 grain bullet load is also a bonded speer bullet but is difficult to load for the 45-70 because it is too long to crimp where designed. BB uses a compressed load for this bullet to keep the bullets of the ammo in the magazine tube from being pushed into their cases by impacts caused during recoil.

 

[336ER]

I happen to own two 45-70s an 1895 and a Ruger #1. The #1 is set up with LE loads and the 1895 showed me it likes them as well. In an effort to perhaps get a tad more short range pop, I have found two other loads utilizing 400gr bullets (Speer) both of which shoot well in my 1895, are powerful and are not expensive. Here are the links, should you be interested. ;D

400gr SpeerJSP @ 1800 FPS is on pg 10 in this online catalogue:
http://www.thehuntingshack.com/catalog/retail/retail.pdf

400gr SpeerJSP @ 1900 FPS is found here:
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM905-5.html

 

[rhendrix]

Findrichard:

That 40K cup sounds like a load for a 450 Marlin. Is that safe for the 1895 45-70?

Lee manual shows a load for a 300gr. Jacketed bullet at 2326 fps velocity with 38,800 PSI. This is loaded with 68.0c grains of H335 but they specify this to be a load for bolt action and Ruger single shot. They show a 2245fps with 27,600 CUP loaded with a 300gr Jacketed bullet and 55.0c grains of H4198. This is for the 95 Lever Action.

Gets a bit confusing when you look at all the different manuals but it seems that Lee is more generous with pressures that most of the others. It seems that most of the others load for cowboy shooting in old guns to me.

 

[preacher]

Yep, the inexpensive Lee Classic Loader is the one. And, I never had a Chrono for the first 15 years I handloaded, as long as you stay at or right under book Max , you will be fine. OR, you could just load any bullet from 300 to 550 over 24-26 gr of Alliant 2400 , velocities will be between 1200 to 1600 depending upon the bullet. Much more pleasent to shoot, real killers too.

 

[rhendrix]

Yep, the inexpensive Lee Classic Loader is the one. And, I never had a Chrono for the first 15 years I handloaded, as long as you stay at or right under book Max , you will be fine. OR, you could just load any bullet from 300 to 550 over 24-26 gr of AA2400 , velocities will be between 1200 to 1600 depending upon the bullet. Much more pleasent to shoot, real killers too.

When using that small amount of powder do you use wadding to take up the case space?

 

[gyrhed]

any 45-70 factory load is pretty much overkill for deer and black bear.

The BB 300s and 350s are heavy loaded and kick much harder than the leverloutions. I think hornady may be streching the muzzle velocity claims and I know there are several lots of this ammon that made 1800 not the 2100 listed. The BB are as advertised, and you know it when you pull the trigger.

Even a 300 gr winchester factory load will kill and deer or black bear DRT.

 

[preacher]

No filler is needed with Alliant 2400, and another great benefit is it tends to burn up in the barrel completely, so one has little to no muzzle flash. This is great for late evening hunts in the dark timber. You can figure 280 reloads from a pound of powder @ 25 gr per load...sweet! If you use the LEE Classic Loader ( $25 @ www.MidwayUSA.com) stay away from the Remington 405; it's crimp groove is very small, a LEE Factory Crimp Die in a press works swell on it,however.
Any 300 grain bullet, like the Remington HP over 26 grains or so, maybe up to 30, is super easy to shoot, and at those speeds, a real killer....my friends tell me, I haven't killed any critters with a 45-70 YET,ha. I have shot many rounds downrange however.

 

[rhendrix]

Thanks for the info preacher and gryhed. I really appreciate you help. Sounds like I need to start reloading. Maybe I would start plinking more with my 45-70. If I am just hunting with it, I guess I would just as well use factory ammo but I always like to have a lot of bullets for all my guns. I just have this idea and fear that they are goiing to start pricing and taxing ammo higher in an attempt ot control it. Wal Mart told me the other day that they were going up 15% across the board on all their ammo. That tells me something is happening in the govt. gun control business and unaffordable ammo is one way to control guns. At least they look at it that way. If I started stocking up on components while we can get them then I would always have ammo and not be subject to their little shananigans.

 

[gunners]

You could also check out ammoguide.com very useful information their, by some very serious handloaders by the looks. Chuckhawks lists 40,000 cup max pressure for the 1895 action in 45-70 . Also I believe the belt was put on the 450 so they( Marlin) could go to higher pressures and they won't fit in 45-70 chamber as to stop people sticking them into trapdoors. Case diamensions are similar as is case capacity 73.4 gr water est to 72.5 gr water est in favour of the 450. Indeed when reloading they're practically identical in performance

 

[450 Sniper]

They can be loaded very close to each other. The 450's barreled action has 'V' threads. The 45/70 has 'U' threads. The 450 can be loaded just a tad hotter.

I always use the Hodgdon online reloading site.
http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

It seems to offer the best loads. I only use Hodgdon powder. I like H322 for my 450 because most of the loads are compressed loads. I've always had great success (accuracy) with compressed loads.
Varget offers compressed loads and you get a lower overall pressure rating.

A co worker of mine just picked up a Hornady Lock & Load starter kit for $175 from Scheels. It had everything he needed - press, hopper, digital scale, hand primer.

I bought a Rockchucker starter kit years ago and I absolutely love it.

I just loaded some Cast Performance 405 WLNGC over a max load of H322. I did it for $1.30/round or $26/20. Much better than BB's $60/20.

You won't regret reloading as an investment in your firearms. Just buy 8lb kegs of powder at a time.
As long as you have bullets, brass, primers and powder - there will never be an ammo shortage!

 

[me]

rhendrix
Sounds like we twisted your arm a little. You brought up a big concern about ammo cost and control issues.
There seems to be no end to the cost of operating guns...remember the Saturday night special,back when they started that campaign you could buy a 336 for $69 and a revolver for about $60.

 

[rhendrix]

I sure do remember that because I owned a gun/sporting goods shop at the time. Some of those Saturday night specials (eg Taurus) are now considered some of the better guns selling now for $400 and $500. Lever guns were cheap then. A $300 o/u shotgun or bolt action rifle was at the top of the line then.