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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
See you can buy one now, factory made, rather than having to "make" one.

Am interested in any reports from people who have them.

I went a bit different way.... my text wouldn't import and displayed only garbage... Sorry

If curious PM me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Dave Manson has the reamer, .40/.44 Special Short 1", we neck down Starline .44 Russian brass, no trimming, no reaming, no fuss.
DougGuy makes the dies from .38-40
 
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I'm curious..........................Why, WHY, would you want one?..............

True, the 10MM and 40 are known as "Hot" rounds, but The only positive I can see is , you can carry more ammo, cuz its smaller.............

I'm not knockin' it, but a Ruger BH in 10MM or 40 S&W really doesn't mate up with any (western style) rifle , cuz they're pistol cartridges.............

So , what draws you this ?............I'm curious.

Tom
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
I'm curious..........................Why, WHY, would you want one?..............So , what draws you this ?............I'm curious.

Tom
Trying again to post my test and see if it gets garbled up again...

Our fantasy was a modern, RIMMED .40 cal. cartridge which could use either .40 S&W or 10mm jacketed or .38-40 cast bullets.

Our objectives were for it to serve the medium game “packing pistol” role, approximating full charge .38-40 black powder ballistics with smokeless, in a smaller, sturdy case, formed from common brass, avoiding the excess free airspace and fragile nature of .38-40 brass.

A case full of black powder or Trail Boss should be adequate for Cowboy Action, plinking. or small game at 700 fps with either round ball or bullet.

The .44 Russian case has just the right case capacity to launch a ½ ounce of lead, to about 700 fps with 20-21 grains of 3Fg or 3.5-4.0 grains of Trail Boss, matching the .41 Long Colt from a 5-inch revolver. In a strong, modern gun, such as the Ruger Blackhawk, its case capacity 10% greater than the 10mm Auto produces a powerful hunting load.

Our initial objective to achieve 1000 fps with 182-grain or 950 fps with 220-grain cast bullets was met with 5 grains of Bullseye in either .40 S&W or 10x25mm Rimmed cases. Slower powders like Auto Comp or 4227 enable even higher magnum velocities in the Ruger revolver.

Dave Manson made the reamer, identified as “.40/.44 Special Short 1-Inch.” John Taylor rebarrelled our Rugers using a Green Mountain “gunsmith special” 10mm barrel with 16” twist, rechambering one cylinder for each gun to .40 S&W, and the other to 10x25mm.

Source brass is Starline .44 Russian, which we neck down and use as is, resulting in a 0.970-0.975” case. The shoulder angle is 6 degrees, 48 minutes Basic, the same as the .38-40 Winchester. Case body diameter is .454" at the shoulder, the same as the .38-40 and .457" at the base, and the same as the .44 Special.

Doug Phillips aka “DougGuy” in North Carolina made our loading dies by cutting down and honing out .38-40 dies on his Sunnen hone. His price to modify a set of .38-40 dies to 10x25mmR is $150. The die alteration process is as follows:


  1. FL sizer and seater are both cut off by 0.4" and a new thread relief is turned.
  2. Neck portion of the sizer die is honed inside up to .420" diameter to produce a tight and correct fit for loading .400” jacketed bullets, without expanding, but flaring only.
  3. Neck portion of the seater die is honed inside to .429" diameter and the ball seat of the seater die is honed up to .402", because if it is tighter, then it really needs to be.
  4. Once you have fire-formed brass, it is possible to neck-size only by using a 0.525” spacer with your .40 S&W Auto dies.

We are now using necked down Starline .44 Russian brass as-is. MUCH easier than cutting off .44 Specials. The shorter .975 case doesn't cause any problems, but the chamber will accept a full 1 inch case of you want to do that. Cylinder throats on our revolvers are .4015.” Anyone ordering the reamer from Dave Manson should specify .40/.44 Special Short 1" Rev1 6-18. A .4015" chucking reamer from McMaster Carr is used to rough the revolver chambers and we ordered our finish reamer with both .392 and .401 pilots so that it can be used either to cut revolver chambers or to chamber a rifle barrel in one of the Green Mountain blanks.

First range trials were conducted firing the converted Blackhawk with its .40 S&W cylinder. Firing 180-grain FMJ Winchester White Box the Ruger was zeroed at 25 yards with its rear sight bottomed out. I then fired .40 S&W hand loads assembled with Accurate 40-182H bullet and 5 grains of Bullseye. Winchester .40 S&W 180 FMJs clocked 1043 fps and the cast Accurate 40-182H with 5 grains of Bullseye 1079 fps from the 5-inch barrel.

Hand held off sandbags, running over the chronograph, six-shot 25-yard groups were 2”. Next range trip I fired 10x25mm loads in Starline .44 Russian brass with 180 Hornady FMJ, Accurate 40-182H and 40-220H, all with 5 grains of Bullseye. The 180-grain Hornady FMJ with 5 grains of Bullseye give 932 fps with a standard deviation of 15 fps over a six-shot string. Accurate 40-182H with the same 5 grains of Bullseye in the 10x25 gave 1009 fps, an Sd of 10 fps and shot to the sights at 25 yards, just like it did in the .40 S&W. The 40-220H gave 949 fps with a standard deviation of 10 fps and grouped at the top edge of the black on a B15 25-yard timed and rapid-fire pistol target. Indeed, about right for a 100-yard zero. Both groups very slightly left, maybe one click to center them up.

The 10x25R case holds 20 grains of Goex 3Fg or 4.0 grains of Trail Boss filling gently to the shoulder without compression. Max BP is 24 grains using a drop tube or compression die. A charge of 4.5 grains of Trail Boss is a good loading maximum with 4.8 grains being the “absolute full stop not to be exceeded.”

Some interesting historical footnotes put our wildcat into proper perspective:

The .44 Richards-Mason conversion for the 1860 Army Colt used 20 grains of black powder with a ½-ounce bullet (218 grains) for 700 fps, dating from 1871.

The 1890s era, third-generation .41 long Colt with its 1.00" case and 200 grain, .401" diameter bullet was propelled by 21 grains of Black Powder.

The British .44 Webley of 1868 used 19 grains Black Powder and a 200 grain bullet for 700 fps from the Royal Irish Constabulary revolver.

All of the above three cartridges transitioned to smokeless powder from black powder before their production ceased between the World Wars.

Yes, we are reinventing the wheel.

A single-shot rook rifle for this round is also planned. Maybe a levergun too if I can find a project Marlin cheap.
 

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Trying again to post my test and see if it gets garbled up again...

Our fantasy was a modern, RIMMED .40 cal. cartridge which could use either .40 S&W or 10mm jacketed or .38-40 cast bullets.

Our objectives were for it to serve the medium game “packing pistol” role, approximating full charge .38-40 black powder ballistics with smokeless, in a smaller, sturdy case, formed from common brass, avoiding the excess free airspace and fragile nature of .38-40 brass.

A case full of black powder or Trail Boss should be adequate for Cowboy Action, plinking. or small game at 700 fps with either round ball or bullet.

The .44 Russian case has just the right case capacity to launch a ½ ounce of lead, to about 700 fps with 20-21 grains of 3Fg or 3.5-4.0 grains of Trail Boss, matching the .41 Long Colt from a 5-inch revolver. In a strong, modern gun, such as the Ruger Blackhawk, its case capacity 10% greater than the 10mm Auto produces a powerful hunting load.

Our initial objective to achieve 1000 fps with 182-grain or 950 fps with 220-grain cast bullets was met with 5 grains of Bullseye in either .40 S&W or 10x25mm Rimmed cases. Slower powders like Auto Comp or 4227 enable even higher magnum velocities in the Ruger revolver.

Dave Manson made the reamer, identified as “.40/.44 Special Short 1-Inch.” John Taylor rebarrelled our Rugers using a Green Mountain “gunsmith special” 10mm barrel with 16” twist, rechambering one cylinder for each gun to .40 S&W, and the other to 10x25mm.

Source brass is Starline .44 Russian, which we neck down and use as is, resulting in a 0.970-0.975” case. The shoulder angle is 6 degrees, 48 minutes Basic, the same as the .38-40 Winchester. Case body diameter is .454" at the shoulder, the same as the .38-40 and .457" at the base, and the same as the .44 Special.

Doug Phillips aka “DougGuy” in North Carolina made our loading dies by cutting down and honing out .38-40 dies on his Sunnen hone. His price to modify a set of .38-40 dies to 10x25mmR is $150. The die alteration process is as follows:


  1. FL sizer and seater are both cut off by 0.4" and a new thread relief is turned.
  2. Neck portion of the sizer die is honed inside up to .420" diameter to produce a tight and correct fit for loading .400” jacketed bullets, without expanding, but flaring only.
  3. Neck portion of the seater die is honed inside to .429" diameter and the ball seat of the seater die is honed up to .402", because if it is tighter, then it really needs to be.
  4. Once you have fire-formed brass, it is possible to neck-size only by using a 0.525” spacer with your .40 S&W Auto dies.

We are now using necked down Starline .44 Russian brass as-is. MUCH easier than cutting off .44 Specials. The shorter .975 case doesn't cause any problems, but the chamber will accept a full 1 inch case of you want to do that. Cylinder throats on our revolvers are .4015.” Anyone ordering the reamer from Dave Madson should specify .40/.44 Special Short 1" Rev1 6-18.

First range trials were conducted firing the converted Blackhawk with its .40 S&W cylinder. Firing 180-grain FMJ Winchester White Box the Ruger was zeroed at 25 yards with its rear sight bottomed out. I then fired .40 S&W hand loads assembled with Accurate 40-182H bullet and 5 grains of Bullseye. Winchester .40 S&W 180 FMJs clocked 1043 fps and the cast Accurate 40-182H with 5 grains of Bullseye 1079 fps from the 5-inch barrel.

Hand held off sandbags, running over the chronograph, six-shot 25-yard groups were 2”. Next range trip I fired 10x25mm loads in Starline .44 Russian brass with 180 Hornady FMJ, Accurate 40-182H and 40-220H, all with 5 grains of Bullseye. The 180-grain Hornady FMJ with 5 grains of Bullseye give 932 fps with a standard deviation of 15 fps over a six-shot string. Accurate 40-182H with the same 5 grains of Bullseye in the 10x25 gave 1009 fps, an Sd of 10 fps and shot to the sights at 25 yards, just like it did in the .40 S&W. The 40-220H gave 949 fps with a standard deviation of 10 fps and grouped at the top edge of the black on a B15 25-yard timed and rapid-fire pistol target. Indeed, about right for a 100-yard zero. Both groups very slightly left, maybe one click to center them up.

The 10x25R case holds 20 grains of Goex 3Fg or 4.0 grains of Trail Boss filling gently to the shoulder without compression. Max BP is 24 grains using a drop tube or compression die. A charge of 4.5 grains of Trail Boss is a good loading maximum with 4.8 grains being the “absolute full stop not to be exceeded.”

Some interesting historical footnotes put our wildcat into proper perspective:

The .44 Richards-Mason conversion for the 1860 Army Colt used 20 grains of black powder with a ½-ounce bullet (218 grains) for 700 fps, dating from 1871.

The 1890s era, third-generation .41 long Colt with its 1.00" case and 200 grain, .401" diameter bullet was propelled by 21 grains of Black Powder.

The British .44 Webley of 1868 used 19 grains Black Powder and a 200 grain bullet for 700 fps from the Royal Irish Constabulary revolver.

All of the above three cartridges transitioned to smokeless powder from black powder before their production ceased between the World Wars.

Yes, we are reinventing the wheel.

A single-shot rook rifle for this round is also planned. Maybe a levergun too if I can find a project Marlin cheap.

HUH ?..................MY question was short and direct........................"Why do you want this? "

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to take away, from what your reply is...........................Apparently, I missed your point..

You didn't answer my question, but that's OK................

All the BEST in your Journey...................

Tom
 

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Interesting project, how is it that you decided go with a wildcat instead of staying with the 10mm. I ve been interested in a 10mm revolver since Ruger started production. What angle is the forcing cone cut and have you considered a longer barrel for the revolver. Another question, how long is the cylinder?
 

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If doing a "project" is what you love, go for it. If you just want to have fun shooting a 40 cal just get a 41 mag. Load it up or load it down. It's a load of fun either way.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
HUH ?..................MY question was short and direct........................"Why do you want this? "

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to take away, from what your reply is...........................Apparently, I missed your point..

You didn't answer my question, but that's OK................

All the BEST in your Journey...................

Tom
.40 S&W ammo and brass are plentiful and cheap here. I care for none of the autopistols in this caliber, but wanted a sturdy revolver to exploit any "found" ammunition which fell off the tailgate of the alien spaceship. 10mm Auto was a possibility, but the ammo less common here, and I had a set of .38-40 dies I wasn't using so did the wildcat simply because "I could." Also for pure academic curiosity. I saw a niche for a powerful, easy to make .40 cal. wildcat suited for rifle or revolver use offering ballistics like the 10mm Auto, but having the potential to efficiently use heavier bullets. Not being limited to magazine length and having the strong Ruger revolver with its cylinder length it does what the 10mm SHOULD have done. Performance is very much like the .41 Magnum with heavier loads, but the ability to use common .40 S&W ammo and components is a plus.

That logic work for ya?
 

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.40 S&W ammo and brass are plentiful and cheap here. I care for none of the autopistols in this caliber, but wanted a sturdy revolver to exploit any "found" ammunition which fell off the tailgate of the alien spaceship. 10mm Auto was a possibility, but the ammo less common here, and I had a set of .38-40 dies I wasn't using so did the wildcat simply because "I could." Also for pure academic curiosity. I saw a niche for a powerful, easy to make .40 cal. wildcat suited for rifle or revolver use offering ballistics like the 10mm Auto, but having the potential to efficiently use heavier bullets. Not being limited to magazine length and having the strong Ruger revolver with its cylinder length it does what the 10mm SHOULD have done. Performance is very much like the .41 Magnum with heavier loads, but the ability to use common .40 S&W ammo and components is a plus.

That logic work for ya?
Outpost 75,

LOL!................Yup, that logic works for me...................But I'm still confused on "What the 10MM should have done"................

What does the 10MM NOT do in a Delta Elite, Glock or similar pistol?...............Running 185's at 1200 to 1300 FPS is enough for me in the field, and a few Coyotes I once knew briefly, thought so, too......

Seriously, I just question the 40 or 10MM in the Ruger cylinder , and needing to make that long jump thru the throat to the forcing cone..............

I know why Ruger makes Black Hawks in Auto pistol cartridges.............because some shooters want to mate them to other like chambered firearms and have single source loading, but I just couldn't see a 10 or 40 in that long cylinder..........Still don't for my use, but that's OK..............

In Revolvers for the field, (my choice is the Colt New Frontier), I like big heavy 230-250 Gr bullets at a comfortable, (NON ear splitting) 900-1000 FPS...........

Thanks for your response and explanation........................I just couldn't see it, at first.

Good Luck with your project...............I understand it, now.......

Tom
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Tomray, the 10mm won't shoot bullets heavier than 200 grains. We wanted to be able to use heavier hunting bullets without being limited by their overall cartridge length reducing available case capacity. The 10mm seated long in a revolver revolver can do that, but we want a lever action rifle down the road also and a rimmed case is easier to work with there. Also wanted to be able to use black powder. OK I'm a half-bubble off plumb, but that's what we wanted and it works for us...:cool:
 
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Tomray, the 10mm won't shoot bullets heavier than 200 grains. We wanted to be able to use heavier hunting bullets without being limited by their overall cartridge length reducing available case capacity. The 10mm seated long in a revolver revolver can do that, but we want a lever action rifle down the road also and a rimmed case is easier to work with there. Also wanted to be able to use black powder. OK I'm a half-bubble off plumb, but that's what we wanted and it works for us...:cool:
Yup, ............200 Gr is the heaviest 10MM bullet I've ever come across, but I never searched for anything greater than 200's and I don't use those too much.....................As said, I'm fine in New England with 185's or 190's at 1200 + FPS............

And I agree, if you long seat any bullet enough in a 10MM case, it will help to diminish the long jump through the cylinder throat to the forcing cone........and even give you more room for propellant.

Tom
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Bearcat,

I have Accurate molds cut for these:

Text Line Font Auto part Diagram
Text Line Font Parallel Line art


If I want heavier, it's easy to get Tom to cut another. I see no need for HP bullets in this. Heavy bullet, large meplat, max. penetration is the goal. I figure a bullet which starts with a "4" which weighs more than 1/2 oz., over 1000 fps, with meplat 0.7 of bullet diameter, cast in 8 BHN alloy, doesn't need a HP to expand, and I'm sure not going to make the bullet more fragile and reduce penetration.
 

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Bearcat,

I have Accurate molds cut for these:

View attachment 719336 View attachment 719338

If I want heavier, it's easy to get Tom to cut another. I see no need for HP bullets in this. Heavy bullet, large meplat, max. penetration is the goal. I figure a bullet which starts with a "4" which weighs more than 1/2 oz., over 1000 fps, with meplat 0.7 of bullet diameter, cast in 8 BHN alloy, doesn't need a HP to expand, and I'm sure not going to make the bullet more fragile and reduce penetration.

I agree, it has to work.
 

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I don't have one but I wonder what it could offer over a .41 Magnum. The 10mm and .40 were designed for use in autos and they do quite well there. The Blackhawk can do so much more with the .41 Magnum: more velocity, more energy, heavier bullets. You could load a 10mm 1/4" over SAAMI OAL and it still would be shorter than the standard OAL of the .41 Mag.

I also don't see any big advantage to an extra .40 cylinder. I guess a case could be made for using it for practice but it wouldn't offer the advantages of something like the .357 or .44 Mag which can also shoot .38 Special and .44 Special in the very same cylinders.

Am I missing something?
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
.41 Magnum ammo and brass is scarcer than 10mm Auto. .40 S&W is common here and unlimited free range pickup brass.
 

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I have the Blackhawk in 45 auto - 45 Colt I thought it would be nice to shoot the cheaper 45 auto but in reality I shoot the 45 colt with 300 grain bullets loaded to 1100 fps buy a friend. They are for hogs and they do a great job. And I have the pre safety Rossi in 45 colt too, so it works well. Maybe one day will take the 45 auto out the box and shoot it too. Good luck with the project same thing here I can pick up all the 40 cases I want.
 
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