Marlin Firearms Forum banner

1 - 20 of 29 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
445 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Been reloading my .243 and .41Mag for many years, but just recently got a .45-70Govt (1895SS).

I've read (numerous times) that there can be no air space between black powder and the bullet (wads and filler, such as Dacron, must be used); is that true for smokeless, as well? I've never run into this before, and can't seem to find any info on it.
 

·
El Kabong
Joined
·
8,333 Posts
You do not have to, but a lot of us do.
Think of the size of the case, and how little powder lays on its side.
You may or may not get an even burn, which effects accuracy.
I use a wad & dacron just for piece of mind.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
297 Posts
My reloads for my antique Trapdoor Springfields{45-70} are reduced loads, resulting in a case with big space. I cut paper towels into one inch squares for wads, I don"t know if this is considered proper but has worked for me for many years with good results.

riflerick
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,666 Posts
Correct! No air space in BP cases. As far as smokless goes, go by the book but some fillers can be used but remember to add the weight of ther filler to your bullet weight and load from there.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
81 Posts
Black Powder - No air space. The way I do my loading, I fill the shell with enough powder so I can put a wad on top of the powder and when I seat the bullet it will compress the powder at least 1/8 to 1/4 inch. The wad can be made from a wax paper milk carton.

maxmo
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
126 Posts
I really need to get into loading black powder cartridges.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,666 Posts
When I went buffalo hunting last week I had several different loads, the 500 grain paper patched bullets I had one box were with 2F black powder and the other loaded with IMR3031 and both loads are very close to the same velocity. Yes, I have and do shoot BP out of my Marlin 1895CB.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
124 Posts
Due to the size of this case, one can get lighter loads of powder that will settle toward the front of the case behind the bullet. This happened to me a bit using a moderate load of 2400. If would fire fine IF I'd lock and load with the weapon elevated. If I put one in the chamber and allowed the muzzle to drop a bit, BOOOOOOOOOOMMMM!!!!!!!!!!! Detonation big time! Scoarched cases, bullet goes God knows where. A real nightmare. So, I quit using 2400 and stick to Trail Boss if I want lighter loads. It fills the case. No big boom!

Lighter loads do require a wad. I've used tiolet paper to hold powder in place just as another here used paper towels. It works well. Dacron melts a bit in the bore and I hate that crud in there when I go to clean....

Wade
 

·
El Kabong
Joined
·
8,333 Posts
Dacron melts a bit in the bore
Psst,

Put a .030 veggie wad between the wad & the powder.
We have not melted any yet.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,666 Posts
Pard said:
Psst,

Put a .030 veggie wad between the wad & the powder.
We have not melted any yet.
+1, I keep two 1000 bags handy for the 45, one in .030 and the other in .060 thicknesses.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
110 Posts
You do not need to worry about using wads or fillers if you are shooting SMOKLESS POWDERS and choose a powder that will fill the case or a good portion of the case. The powder i use is IMR-4198 for several 45/70's i have. There is many other powders that you can choose from that will not require you to worry about using fillers or wads and still get excellant velocity and accuracy.

I choose IMR-4198 since I load from trapdoor level loads to heavier loads for my Marlin 1895 and Siamese mauser rifle and IMR-4198 is a very good powder for those muti-level loads without switching back and forth on different powders for light to heavy loads. But there is several other powders out there that will do the same as IMR-4198 does for my reloading requirements. 8)
 

·
El Kabong
Joined
·
8,333 Posts
janott said:
+1, I keep two 1000 bags handy for the 45, one in .030 and the other in .060 thicknesses.
Went to Buffalo Arms and bought rolls of veggie material & a cutter.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
12,094 Posts
Very few smokeless loads in any caliber actually fill the case. When folks use fillers with smokeless its usually to get consistant ignition & tighter velocity spreads. I dont use them at all because #1 I never saw any problems with the reduced loads I do use & #2 theres a danger of the wad or whatever coming away from the bullet base, turning into a projectile itself & slamming into the bullet which at that point acts like an obstruction. I may be paranoid about it but its my gun & thats my thoughts. Black powder is not a propelant like smokeless is. Its an explosive. You want no room for that explosion to start before its moving the bullet or it'll act like a bomb. The pressure will build to excessive ammounts before the bullet moves & at that point the bullet cant get out of the way fast enough. If the bullet is right on the powder, or better yet compressing it a little bit, it starts moving immediately &the pressure created behind it just pushes it out.
So, IMO just load the thing useing published data & have fun. :)
I use 25 grains of 2400 under all sorts of 405 grain bullets with no fillers & great sucess. There is a rather large extreme spread if I point the muzzle up one shot & down on another but no more than many factory loads & I'v never had a hint of trouble with it as far as detonation. The simple fact is if someone experienced detonation, their gun would be destroyed & if it was a danger with relatively fast powders like 2400 or Unique then we wouldn't see published data useing them in the 45/70 without fillers. While you will find some fast powder data useing fillers there is also plenty that doesnt. You will notice that almost all light slow powder loads use fillers. Slow powder doesn't burn good in big cases with small amounts. Detonation happens with light loads of slow powders not fast ones. I was shooting next to a guy with a 458 Lott one afternoon. He was having hang fires & we were talking about it trying to figure out why his 30/06 with the same lot of primers & powder wasn't doing it. What he didn't mention at that point was that his Lott loads were VERY light & I think he was useing 4831. Anyway he came back a few minuteslater with a billet lodged in the bore, just ahead of the chamber and a cartridge case with 1/4" of unburnt compressed powder sticking out of the case. Thats when he mentioned how light the load was. I figure what was happening with the hang fires was the powder was doing a snap-crackle-pop trying to ignite as the primer flame went over it, it eventually lit but there was a noticable delay. On that last one things worked a bit different, maybe he pointed the gun up or down first, I dont know, but it seems the primer flash & maybe a small amount of powder pushed the powder charge forward which pushed the bullet into the bore, but lucky for him it ended there. IF at that point the powder had ignited I think the gun woulda come apart violently.

What I take away from that is that very light SLOW powder loads NEED a filler to burn reliably give consistant ignition & prevent possible detonation. Faster powders dont suffer the same issues because they light up easy. Try dumping a little slow powder on a rock & lighting it compared to a fast powder & you'll see what I mean. On another note if you dont believe me (which is fine :)) Take apart ANY light factory load & see if theres a filler in there. If it was needed it'd be there, but it aint. Thats not to say a filler cant reduce extreme spread & create a more acurate load, just that its not needed & doesn't pose a danger if useing published data.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
631 Posts
Leverdude, I have read about 25grs. of 2400 many times on the forum and I am curious about what the velocity is with a 405 cast bullet and what length barrel?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
12,094 Posts
BR549 said:
Leverdude, I have read about 25grs. of 2400 many times on the forum and I am curious about what the velocity is with a 405 cast bullet and what length barrel?
Its been a long time since I shot it over a chrony, but if I recall I was getting about 1250-1300fps from a 22" tube. Dr A, another member here gets a bit more if I recall closer to 1500fps. Could be his chamber is tighter, different brass or primer. Theres alot of variables. Or its even possible I remember wrong, my gun was bought with a ported 18" barrel and, while I think I chronied it after the swap I may well be wrong. I used to shoot everything over the chrony when it was new. Now I mostly only bother when dealing with a new to me caliber, powder or load. At any rate its plenty mild enough for me to shoot all day & plenty powerful enough to put a 405 grain bullet thru every deer I ever shot with it.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,222 Posts
My 2400 with 25gr. Runs 1480fps in my 22 incher, and 1520 in my 26 incg CB.! Gonna try to kill a pg with it. Going too low with 2400 will give more problems than too high. I also do Unique at 12gr., TB, and some titegroup. Many thousands of rounds with no fillers or detonations.!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
12,094 Posts
So your definately bringing the 45/70 then eh? :D I think it'll kill a pig, it killed buffalo & if these pigs are bigger than buffaloes I'll be way undergunned with a 30/30! :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
124 Posts
Question, Please analyze the following symptoms:

1. Tremendous thundering BOOM upon firing.
2. Huge muzzle flash the size of a large beachball.
3. Round that departs barrell will not be on paper even at 25 yds.
4. Cases all badly scorched and burnt from mouth to midway along the outter side.
5. The above happens when weapon is pointed down prior to discharge.
6. If weapon is elevated muzzle up prior to discharge, the above does not occur.

Load: 24.5 to 25 gr. of H2400. R-P cases. Win LR primer. Cast Lee 350 gr. @.457"
Weapon: Stock Marlin 2009, M1895G.

Now, if this is not a form of detonation, then what does one call this phenomnon???

Wade
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,031 Posts
Well I don't know the name for that, but from your description of the cases you do not have enough pressure for them to seal the chamber, hence the blow back.

I would switch to 35 grains of RL-7. It will fill the case a little more and stop the powder sloshing and will push your 350gr round nose to about 1400fps in a 22" barrel.

Or try the fillers

JMHO
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
114 Posts
Wade,

one thing I did not see mentioned regarding your load was if or how they were crimped.
I am just wondering if maybe the lack of a good crimp could affect how the 2400 burned
in your load. Looking forward to knowledgeable comments on your problem!
regards,
E.Tucker
 
1 - 20 of 29 Posts
Top