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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey there,

I'm from Black Forest, Germany and i'm very interested in the Marlin leveractions expecially in .45-70 Gov.
I search for something special considering the .45-70 and cast bullets.

Currently I hunt with my .308 Win with a 110 Grains Barnes TSX loaded at 3100 fps.
I`ve tried a lot with lead free bullets and I found out, that they have to fly fast to work well.
Most of the time I have some bloodshot meat. It's not much and not more than 1 or 2 hands full that I can't eat. I aim right behind the shoulders and try to do lung shots. So bloodshot areas around the ribs arent very problematic.

The game we hunt here in Germany is mostly roe deer, that are very small deer (20-40 lbs). I beliefe that you don't have that species in the USA?. Roe Deer is about 95 % of all the game I hunt. There are a few wild boar and very few red deer (similar to your american elk). The ranges I have to shoot go from 30 yards up to 100 yards. I don't have to shoot much further. In most cases I shoot 60 or 70 yards. Most of the time we hunt in the forest, you call it "in the woods".

I like the Marlin lever action, especially in .45-70.
So I startet to read in the internet for some information about that cartridge and the possibility to hunt with it here in german forests.
Sure, I love my .308 Win. with its fast moving bullets but I want to know, if there is something better.
Would it be possible to get better performance with a .45 cal cast bullet with a big meplat (WFN), driven at low velocity with no expansion?

My questions are:
- Would you recommend the .45-70 with a self made cast bullet for the lightweigt deer that we have here? Or would it be better to stay with the .308 Win. with fast moving bullets?
- Because I live in Germany it is very difficult to buy cast bullets from the USA, so would it be a good idea to start bullet casting?
Can you recommend a book to me, that contains all the information I need?
- What bullet weight would you recommened to me, hunting most of the time roe deer from 20-40 lbs? I dont need grizzly penetration because we dont have dangerous game here. I want a bullet that travels trough a deer, that doesn't waste meat and kills the deer not slower than my .308 Win. Is it possible with a WFN bullet in .45 cal. to kill faster and with much lesser loss of meat than with my Barnes TSX at 3100 fps? I dont want to use jacketed 300 Grains Bullets for .45-70, because they are too fast and waste al lot of meat if i hit the shoulder. I believe, that I dont need that expansion when I use a .45 cal. bullet.
- What bullet mold would you use in my situation? Are the rcbs, lyman, lee and so good molds? What are the better ones? (The molds from these big concerns are available in Germany. The custom made molds from small companys arent available, or very expensive in shipping.)

I hope you have some recommendations for me starting to use a .45-70 or staying better with the .308 Win.

Thanks.

Best regards from Black Forest, Germany
- Blackforest
 

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Welcome aboard. Nothing wrong with wanting a .45-70 to hunt with, great cartridge. I do think it's a bit much for shooting Roe deer. Have you thought about shooting cast bullets out of your .308 slowed down a little? I think they would be ideal for Roe deer hunting. Just a thought. Good luck and Happy Shootin'!
 

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I think the 45-70 is a bit overkill for roe deer. If you want a lever gun, I personnally would choose a 357 mag. You could cast lead bullet for it and have a light and fast pointing gun with enough power for your nice litle deer. Slowing down the .308 with cast is also quite a good option.
You should read the lyman cast bullet handbook first, very good reading before mouving to cast bullet.

Welcom to the forum. Many good advice will come shortly.




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Welcome aboard. A 45/70 with a wide meplat cast would serve you fine for what you're hunting. You're 308 is also an excellent choice for all the game you mentioned. If you want a 45/70, get one. You'll enjoy it. Leverguns are fun to shoot. However, I don't know that it will serve you any better than your .308. Have you tried heavier slower moving bullets in your .308?
 
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The 45-70 would be ideal for your needs. I like a heavier bullet, I shoot a 350 gr. WFN cast bullet over 14 gr. of Unique or 30 gr. IMR-4198. That is close to the best velocity of 1500 feet per second. Over 1500 FPS the penetration drops rapidly, best penetration is 1400 to 1500 FPS. The 45-70 does not need to expand, it's already near a half inch, and you can "eat right up to the hole" , (no meat loss).
Range is not an issue, shooter ability is the limiting factor. I live in open country where shots can be in excess of 500 yards, although I advise against taking shot over about 200 yards. Longest shot that I have seen took a 200 pound Mule deer at 463 measured yards. We have unpredictable winds which may change direction two or three times over a 400 yard range. Winds and a slow moving 45-70 bullet can allow time for a game animal to move enough while bullet is in flight to cause a cripple or non-fatal hit.

Enjoy the 45-70, it's a great cartridge and fun to shoot. Best hunting loads are in the 14 to 15 hundred fps velocity. If you enjoy self-abuse and pain, the 45-70 can be loaded to maximum to give you all the pain you want...:s:
 

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Hi Black Forest, welcome to the MO`s from Butzbach / Hessen:smile:

The 45/70 is hard enough for our Roe Buck ! Take a look in the WildundHund-Forum there are a lot of users from 45/70. I use a Federal 300 grs Ammo for all........:flute: Its enough power for Red Stag or the European Hogs. When you hunt bigger than Roe Buck, use the Hornady LeverEvolution with 325 grs...its the only Ammo thats legal. Or ask an (commecial) Reloader for a charge with more power.
For driven hunt my friend load a Speer 400 grs SP with more power than the Federal.

Doe with 45/70
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little Roe Buck 12 lbs
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Little Hog
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45-70 loaded mild will do fine foe Roe deer but a 405gn bullet is too much. A wide meplat 300-350gn would do. Casting is an option some enjoy. Any commercial mold manufacturer mentioned is fine. Lee's reloading manual is a good one.
 
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I think its better to use a heavy and slowly bullet for the .308! In my .30-06 i use a 180 grs TTSX and a 210 grs Hornady with no problems or bloody meat.
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Welcome aboard. Nothing wrong with wanting a .45-70 to hunt with, great cartridge. I do think it's a bit much for shooting Roe deer. Have you thought about shooting cast bullets out of your .308 slowed down a little? I think they would be ideal for Roe deer hunting. Just a thought. Good luck and Happy Shootin'!
Thanks! I thougt about shooting cast bullets out of my .308 Win. but with cast velocities the energy is very low, because of the very light bullets. We have some energyleves we have to reach here, so the only way for us to go with cast bullets is to use heavy bullets like the .45-70 can handle.

You said, that a .45-70 would be too much for roe deer. I do not plan to shoot with full power loads on roe deer, I thougt of a load like this:

[...] I like a heavier bullet, I shoot a 350 gr. WFN cast bullet over 14 gr. of Unique or 30 gr. IMR-4198. That is close to the best velocity of 1500 feet per second. Over 1500 FPS the penetration drops rapidly, best penetration is 1400 to 1500 FPS. The 45-70 does not need to expand, it's already near a half inch, and you can "eat right up to the hole" , (no meat loss). [...] Best hunting loads are in the 14 to 15 hundred fps velocity.[...]
Something heavy and slow.

45-70 loaded mild will do fine foe Roe deer but a 405gn bullet is too much. A wide meplat 300-350gn would do. Casting is an option some enjoy. Any commercial mold manufacturer mentioned is fine. Lee's reloading manual is a good one.
The only reason I thougt of using a 405 grs bullet was the fact, that in most cases the heavy bullets fly more accurate than the lower 300-350 grs.
Youre right, a full power 405 grs load, may penetrate a grizzly. I only want to hunt for roe deer and hogs. So a 405 grs loadet to 1400 fps could work, not?

I think its better to use a heavy and slowly bullet for the .308! In my .30-06 i use a 180 grs TTSX and a 210 grs Hornady with no problems or bloody meat.
Hey! A german member at MarlinOwners! Cool. I want to answer you in english:
I startet with 150 grs Hornady GMX at 2700 fps. Then 160 grs SSM "Kupferjagdgeschoss" at 2550 fps from Austria. Most of the time the roe deer went 20-40 yards before dropping down. So I followed the concept of very fast bullets. I tried the Barnes TSX 110 grs at 3100 fps and I do NOT have more meat loss than with the slower bullets, but the roe deers only go 10-20, sometimes 30 yards. I would say, they die faster.
I'm reloading my own ammo, so it's no problem to make a load that will have enough energy that our government wants.

[...]You should read the lyman cast bullet handbook first, very good reading before mouving to cast bullet.
Thanks, I will read it!

Welcome aboard. A 45/70 with a wide meplat cast would serve you fine for what you're hunting. You're 308 is also an excellent choice for all the game you mentioned. If you want a 45/70, get one. You'll enjoy it. Leverguns are fun to shoot. However, I don't know that it will serve you any better than your .308. Have you tried heavier slower moving bullets in your .308?
In .308 i want to usw lead free bullets, so they have to be fast to open up. Because of this I want to stay in the 110 grs to 130 grs range in .308.

My thougt was like JBledsoe said it before, instead of using a .308 Win expanding bullet there could be an option to usw a .45 cal bullet, that doesnt have to expand, because it is big enough even at the muzzle, when it starts to fly. I got the information hat the velocity range around 1400 fps with a wide flat meplat bullet would be good for .45-70. So my thougt was to load a 405 grs up to that velocity because the should fly very accurate in the .45-70 Marlin. Well, 300-350 grs, if they fly accurate, that would be an alternative.
Is there a lot of difference in recoil shooting a 300-350 grs bullet at 1400 fps compared to a 405 grs at 1400 fps? (I now how to calculate recoil energy... can you tell me of felt recoil with that two bullets at the same velocity?)

Here in Germany we have an old a cartridge called: 9,3x72R. Slow moving bullets in diameter .366 with arould 200 grs bullet weight and with a velocity between 1400 and 1500 fps. That was a very good roe deer killer in the century before. That old cartrige follows the same idea the .45-70 does. I like the .45-70 more, because of lever acition and the bigger diameter.
Well, i believe killing power is more that only the transferred energy into the animal. My Barnes TSX transferres a lot of energy to the roe deer (fast opening, low sectional density). Then i hear of big bore, cast bullets with no expansion and quite high sectional density at moderate velocity, they do not transfer the amount of energy that the light TSX does, but most of the time the roe deer drops in his tracks, and like JBledsoe said it before, you can eat right up to the hole.

What do you think?

- Blackforest
 

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Hey BlackForest,

Welcome to MO.

Would stay with 350gr to 425gr (up to 465gr, depending on alloy/mold combo) bullets.

The deciding factor, is accuracy in your rifle. Some rifles seem to "prefer" the 350gr bullets, while others seem to shoot "better" with 405gr (or heavier) bullets.

As JBledsoe stated, keep your velocity to 1400-1500 fps.

As to recoil, shooting off hand, one can hardly tell the difference with the 13gr to 14gr Unique/Universal Clays load. Very low recoil, very low "report".

You will want to go for the "high" shoulder shot, as this usually takes a 1/2" (12.5mm) chunk of spine out.......

All the mold makers you listed are good ones.

Another thing with cast bullets (have found .460" diameter to work well in my rifles) is the lube.

If you can get a mold to "drop" the bullets at .460", then you can "pan lube". Highly recommend Wind's Wonder Wax http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/3...tandard-calibers/94585-wind-s-wonder-wax.html

Eliminates the need to size.

Later, Mark
 

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" Hey! A german member at MarlinOwners! Cool. I want to answer you in english:
I startet with 150 grs Hornady GMX at 2700 fps. Then 160 grs SSM "Kupferjagdgeschoss" at 2550 fps from Austria. Most of the time the roe deer went 20-40 yards before dropping down. So I followed the concept of very fast bullets. I tried the Barnes TSX 110 grs at 3100 fps and I do NOT have more meat loss than with the slower bullets, but the roe deers only go 10-20, sometimes 30 yards. I would say, they die faster.
I'm reloading my own ammo, so it's no problem to make a load that will have enough energy that our government wants"

Ithink you should change your hitpoint with the .308 ! I shot high on the shoulder ( Hochblatt). All my Roe Deer dropped down, hole in--hole out. No meat damaged. No tracks.
Sorry, i hasn`t read you are a reloader ! That makes it all easier.

OT : I use a 9,3X72 R in my old threebarrel !
Take a look on my profile !
 
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As mentioned above 325-405 lead bullet running 1400-1500 will be deadly on anything game wise you will encounter
if you could powdercoat them even better .. sized correctly and you will not need to worry at all about leading
Good to have you on board . I was born in Wiesbaden and my mother in Koblenz .. Been in the states for many years now
Would you mind me sending you a PM to discuss the Muslim situation there now .. Mom is 80 and wanting to go home for one last visit
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Ithink you should change your hitpoint with the .308 ! I shot high on the shoulder ( Hochblatt). All my Roe Deer dropped down, hole in--hole out. No meat damaged. No tracks.
Sorry, i hasn`t read you are a reloader ! That makes it all easier.

OT : I use a 9,3X72 R in my old threebarrel !
Take a look on my profile !
Hey hoghuntergermany! If i shoot high shoulder, I dont have tracks, too. 2 days ago I shot a roe buck at about 40 m (yards) at the "Kirrung". Shot him trough both shoulders. Dropped right where he stood. I dont know what you unterstand in "meat damage". Because of the leadfree Barnes TSX I didnt have any fragments in the meat, but his front legs were broken and a lot of bloodshot areas on both sides on the shoulders. About the same sitze on the entrance and on the exit shoulder with a size of about 15x15cm or 6 to 6 inch. It was not a hard work to get that bloody stuff off the meat, because we dress the game very soon after the hunt when it's still warm. Maybe be lost one hand full of meat. For me that is NO meat damage. But it is some work to get all that bloody parts of the good meat.

This is the reason why I startet that thread and my most important question was:
Is it possible, with same shot placement mentionned above, to get same dropping down results on roe deer, without that bloody parts on the shoulders?
I summary of all the good replies I recieved here, it is possible with a .45-70 Gov. using a wide flat nose cast bullet with a big meplat, driven to 1400-1500 fps. The sentence I liked most was "you can eat right up to the hole" That would be great! :)


As mentioned above 325-405 lead bullet running 1400-1500 will be deadly on anything game wise you will encounter
if you could powdercoat them even better .. sized correctly and you will not need to worry at all about leading
Good to have you on board . I was born in Wiesbaden and my mother in Koblenz .. Been in the states for many years now
Would you mind me sending you a PM to discuss the Muslim situation there now .. Mom is 80 and wanting to go home for one last visit
Hey Smoke, feel free to contact me. ;-)

Best regards from the snow covered Black Forest
 

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In my part of the world I hunt deer ( 200lb White tail ) hog and black bear in brushy swamp land where shots are most often close (under 100 Yards) with a NOE 460- 405Gr HP that I cast my self. yes it is a bit much, but I have not had one get back up after the shoot
 

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Hi Black forest, I think heavy and slow will serve you well. I have used a 9.3x62 with a 285gr on roe and very little meat damage. I say go for it!
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
@ hoghuntergermany

"Kupferjagdgeschoss"
What kind if disease is that? 😜
it's pure copper bullet! :)

Hi Black forest, I think heavy and slow will serve you well. I have used a 9.3x62 with a 285gr on roe and very little meat damage. I say go for it!
Hey Scrumbag, thanks for that advice. 9,3x62 is a great cartridge. What kind of bullet did you use in 285 grs. Was it a cast bullet or a jacketed one?

Greetings from rainy Blackforest
 

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For me, a shoulder shot on a deer always means a ruined shoulder. I prefer to hit just behind the shoulder, through the rib cage. There is no need to "break them down" like large dangerous game.

If those were my only choices, I would use what the rifle shoots most accurately and slow it down as much as is reasonable to make the kill. For the .45-70, I'm thinking a 405gr @ 1200 fps would be a good place to start. A 350 would do fine if your rifle likes them, but if you make it too fast you will get back to meat damage. My CB wants the 350s to go a little faster to stabilize the bullet so I don't prefer it over a 405.

If you can't shoot cast in the .308, I'd be tempted to try a 180gr JSP as slow as the law allows and that the rifle will stabilize. Maybe even a 170gr suitable for a .30-30 at modest velocities. I've hunted coyote with 150s, it was effective, but again we end up with more meat damage on a game animal.

Roe Deer would be an excellent use of a .25-20. Maybe one of those new Henry .327s with a 115 gr cast bullet. If the local restrictions permit. It sound like a lot of fun.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Hey,
there are a few fotos of a roe buck I shot in summer last year. I was in the woods and only had to shoot about 40 yards. I shot him through both shoulders. Maybe I only hit one shoulder, because he stood a little bit angular but one shoulder was definatly hit. Normally I try to shoot right behind the shoulders, but this shot was on the rear half of the shoulder. He went about 30 yards and fell ower. Both lungs were hit. The weight of the buck was 37 pounds. I used a .308 Win SSM copper bullet with 160 grs @ 2500 fps. On the last picture you can see the good meat in the red box, the skin in the green box and the how do you call it in english? The bloody parts of tissure. There is a lot of tissue with blood and a bit meat that I have to cut off. Do you call that "bloodshot meat" or what is the right word for that stuff I have to throw away?

Now with my Barnes TSX 110 grs @ 3100 fps, there is sometimes more bloody stuff, if I hit very close to the shoulders or hit them at the very last part of the shoulder, but they dont go so far anymore. Well a clean behind the shoulders shot doesn't waste any meat, very few blood on the ribs, no waste, thats okay...and sometimes they only ran 10 yards before laying down.

My idea was to avoid that amount of wasted parts by using a heavy slow cast bullet in 45/70. That should work for behind the shoulder shots and if I hit the shoulder at the edge (not a hit in the middle where the bone is...) there should be way less tissure destrucition and meat loss, not? What do you think of tracking distances, might they increase with the cast 45/70 bullet that definitly won't transfere as much as energy to the deer compared with the deforming Barnes TSX out of the .308? Thats a question for you hunters who used the 45/70 and cast bullets on little deer?

Most of you said it bevore, it should work very well and compared to that fotos, do you stick with your opinion?
Couldn't it be possible to get better results with the 45/70 and a cast bullet with a wide flat meplat than with the litte, fast expanding .308 bullets I currently use?

...well I am a meat hunter, I hunt for the freezer and this is the reason why i try to find the "perfekt for me".
Please excuse my questioning and questioning and questioning.

P7260013.JPG P7260014.JPG P7260016.JPG
 

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Hello Blackforest. Welcome to the forum.

My hunting load for whitetail deer is a 405gr Remington SP loaded to 999 fps. It leaves a 20mm hole clear through and you can eat up to the hole, even if you hit the shoulder bone. No wasted meat!

A 300gr cast will do the same thing, but my rifle shoots 405gr more accurately. The idea is, you need a slow moving bullet to get minimum meat loss. By slow, I mean anything below 1650 fps. 999 fps works for me and recoil is very mild. It's a fun rifle to shoot.

Enjoy
 
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