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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Once read an article in a magazine, by an author that had actually used the 35R, the 32 Special and the 30-30 who stated that if the power between the cartridges was dynamite a chipmunk could not blow his nose with the difference. I am throwing in the 38-55. I have used the 30-30 the 38-55 and the 35 Remington but not the 32 Special. The 32S has intrigued me but I could never see the need to pay more for factory shells or reloading gear to get one.
All have their adherents who are rather vocal in their support, usually at the expense of the 30-30. 32S in my opinion is technically a better carbine cartridge as the loading data shows velocities for its 170 grain bullet equal to those for the 30-30 in a 26 or 24"barrel. Typically the 30-30 gives about 2090 fps with factory loads with a 170 grain bullet. However if one looks at downrange performance, the 30 cal bullet start to exceed the 32cal ones even though starting slower. If one looks at the 200 grain 35 cal bullet it is even more so. That 35 Remington slows down pretty fast. A hot load in a 38-55 with its 255 grain bullet is around 1700 fps and it does maintain its velocity pretty fair but still has a bit of a rainbow trajectory downrange.
So, was that author correct in his assessment. Personally I think so. Makes for an interesting discussion, but I have seen pictures of moose shot with a 30-30. I have a 336 with a rough bore that I have thought about sending off to get recut. Choice would be 35-30, 356 W or 38-55. The rifle shoots OK with a slightly fouled bore so I have not done so. To me the biggest advantage of the 30-30 was that before the shortages it only cost about $16 a box for ammo as compared to more than double that for the others for no gain.
Wrote this for fun, as I am sure there are some detractors.

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Add to the equation the ability to reach and kill out to 200 yards with the FTX 160-grain bullets and the 30-30 has more than enough power to dispatch 90% of game species found in the U.S.. I chose the 30-30 over the .35 Remington in my 336 due primarily to the ubiquitous availability of factory ammunition and reloading components.
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Shot placement and bullet construction are most important. A few hundred ft/sec or a couple hundredths of an inch won't kill an animal. Disrupting the blood supply, tissue damage, and shock from the projectile striking is what kills.

There are two schools of thought on pass-through. One group wants 'all the bullet energy' to stay in the animal. The other group wants two holes, blood out and air in. Tracking sure is easier with a pass-through.

Velocity is a factor. The British had extensive experience shooting game in Africa, and their conclusion is that 2200-2400 ft/sec is the ideal range because the bullet spends more time in tissue than a faster bullet, and is more deadly than a slower bullet. Others, the Roy Weatherby school, promoted hydrostatic shock from very high velocity. Elmer Keith promoted heavy-for-caliber bullets, bigger diameters at moderate velocity.

In the end, placement and bullet integrity kills. A projectile that holds together, plows through, and stops the heart from sending blood to the brain kills best.
 

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Love all my 35 's,but I also own a J 336 in 30 30 and have no problem taking it.
Once read an article in a magazine, by an author that had actually used the 35R, the 32 Special and the 30-30 who stated that if the power between the cartridges was dynamite a chipmunk could not blow his nose with the difference. I am throwing in the 38-55. I have used the 30-30 the 38-55 and the 35 Remington but not the 32 Special. The 32S has intrigued me but I could never see the need to pay more for factory shells or reloading gear to get one.
All have their adherents who are rather vocal in their support, usually at the expense of the 30-30. 32S in my opinion is technically a better carbine cartridge as the loading data shows velocities for its 170 grain bullet equal to those for the 30-30 in a 26 or 24"barrel. Typically the 30-30 gives about 2090 fps with factory loads with a 170 grain bullet. However if one looks at downrange performance, the 30 cal bullet start to exceed the 32cal ones even though starting slower. If one looks at the 200 grain 35 cal bullet it is even more so. That 35 Remington slows down pretty fast. A hot load in a 38-55 with its 255 grain bullet is around 1700 fps and it does maintain its velocity pretty fair but still has a bit of a rainbow trajectory downrange.
So, was that author correct in his assessment. Personally I think so. Makes for an interesting discussion, but I have seen pictures of moose shot with a 30-30. I have a 336 with a rough bore that I have thought about sending off to get recut. Choice would be 35-30, 356 W or 38-55. The rifle shoots OK with a slightly fouled bore so I have not done so. To me the biggest advantage of the 30-30 was that before the shortages it only cost about $16 a box for ammo as compared to more than double that for the others for no gain.
Wrote this for fun, as I am sure there are some detractors.

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While the 32 looks good on paper, and is possibly a bit superior then the 30-30, I doubt anyone would notice a difference on deer sized game. same with the 35. I've taken many deer with a 30-30 but would add that I feel a 150 gr bullet works best on them. Maybe it's the faster fps, shock, whatever, but I have less tracking then when I used 170's, which just might be most useful on bigger game.
In reality though, shot placement is key, and some deer die harder then others..shoot enough of them, with any caliber, and you'll see everything from dead right there, to 200 yd runs...it is what it is....
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I have shot 5 deer with the 35. 4 Were DRT, and should have been if you look at where they were hit. Couple would ahve been down with my 22 mag. One was a smaller deer broadsided through the lungs. It was in a small clearing and ran into cover before it dropped. Little to do with whether it was a 35 or what ever as they do that.
Kenneth Anderson was an African PH who had an interest in firearms and shot placement and seemed to have a special place for the Weatherby shooters (not really positive) He was also a veterinarian. His opinions were what Rob mentioned, that 2200 fps or so was plenty. Higher velocities made bullets fragment or deformed solids. There are 3 technologies concerning lead bullets. Bare lead for slower velocities as in the BP days. Jacketed lead developed around 1890 or a little later and now solid copper alloys which stay together better for the fast ones. At
higher velocities, if a jacketed bullet holds together well it gets tricky to get them to work well at the longer ranges and vice versa.
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Walter Dalrymple Maitland Bell killed 1000+ elephants with a .303 Enfield, a 7x57 Mauser, and a 6.5x54 Mannlicher, the majority falling to the 6.5mm. Mostly one shot kills. It's about bullet placement, brain shots in this case, as any of the three cartridges mentioned are not thought of as traditional elephant loads. When discussing killing power, you can't ignore marksmanship.
 

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@northmn If there was just one good deer cartridge then we’d all be shooting the same thing. A deer, bear, moose, etc.. don’t know the difference between any of them. It’s like they always say, there’s more than one way to skin a cat.
I like to shoot the less popular cartridges because they tend to be good conversation starters and don’t mind paying a little extra for that privilege.
 

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All I know is that I used to hit the rifle cartridge rams with a 30-30 and they sometimes just stood there with a mark on them, then I switched to a 38-55 going much slower and it was a flat ram every time it was hit.
Little bit of Physics for you -- Momentum is what counts hitting steel.
cartridge bullet kg*m/s increase
30-30 Win 150 0.15
30-30 Win 160 0.16 1%
32 Win Spl 165 0.165 1%
35 Rem 200 0.2 4%
38-55 255 0.255 6%

Momentum is mass times velocity where Kinetic Energy is mass times velocity SQUARED.
I won't make it any more complicated than that. :rolleyes:
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Bullet mass also matters hitting steel. If you look at the lead splatter at the base of the steel targets there is no bullet left. A 22 has about 40 ftlbs of energy which means it should be able to push a 40lb steel target back 1 foot. It might make one wiggle because the 40 grain bullet disintegrates and there is no mass left to push it. The slower large bullets can absorb more energy which permits the steel to move. Silhouette shooters have used FMJ bullets to maintain more bullet integrity because of that. It does not translate much to game. The higher velocity 30-30 just blows up the bullets on steel and leaves little transfer. Most think KE is a yardstick for cartridge effect and more KE means more killing power. The KEalso affects the bullets which explains why hot 22's that blow up on larger animals are not good.
@northmn If there was just one good deer cartridge then we’d all be shooting the same thing. A deer, bear, moose, etc.. don’t know the difference between any of them. It’s like they always say, there’s more than one way to skin a cat.
I like to shoot the less popular cartridges because they tend to be good conversation starters and don’t mind paying a little extra for that privilege.
There are other reasons to use the other cartridges. My 35 Remington is not a common one and has a 24" barrel and I shoot it well. My 38-55 is a Marlin CB which is easier to shoot offhand. I am not fond of carbines and have a Marlin CB in 30-30 that I like. The actual rifle itself can make a large difference in choice. Its fun to try different things. If I were totally practical I would shoot my scoped bolt action all the time. Levers can be more fun.

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"Walter Dalrymple Maitland Bell killed 1000+ elephants with a .303 Enfield, a 7x57 Mauser, and a 6.5x54 Mannlicher, the majority falling to the 6.5mm. Mostly one shot kills. It's about bullet placement, brain shots in this case, as any of the three cartridges mentioned are not thought of as traditional elephant loads. When discussing killing power, you can't ignore marksmanship."

Bell killed Slightly over 1,100 elephants, mainly with the 7x57 Mauser with 173 gr. full metal jacket bullets at roughly 2300 FPS. The rest were taken with various cartridges including the 6.5MS which he dropped early on because of problems with the bullets bending on impact or the cartridge misfiring. He later went to the .303 British with its 10 round magazine and a IIRC 450/400 Nitro Express for the very up close and personal encounters.
You're absolutely right about marksmanship. He liked to shoot birds on the fly with his rifles. His book Karamojo Safari and Corbett's book the, Maneaters of Kumaon and his use of the 7x57 led me to pick up a few rifles for that cartridge and play with the round. FWIW, properly handloaded it will snap quite close to the heels of the .280 Remington factory rounds.
Paul B.
 
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My best freind in high school hunted with his dads .32 Special (can't remember if it was a Winchester or Marlin) and I was so jealous as the Marlin my dad had was 'only' a .30-30. I thought that .32 Special was so, well "special"!
Funny how that happened,back then I thought of a 30-30 as having a big round bullet going really slow. Now my favorite is a 38-55 going really slow.

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I also read that Bell had a few individuals that tried to copy him using the smaller cartridges and got stomped pretty fatally.
One grand old cartridge in Africa was the 9.3 X 62 Mauser which does not look like a overly powerful cartridge today but served most of it users well. 286 grain bullet at 2300 fps. Seems like the Bullets moving at those lower speeds hang together better.

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If you have a more modern .38-55 it can be loaded right up there with the ,375. The old one can't be and are slow.
Have a great day.
Jim
The point was in silhouette I am quite happy with 1200 fps, understanding that for hunting game more speed should be considered mainly due to not knowing exactly distance to target.

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