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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This morning the weather was beautiful and I had a change to take my 336 in 35 Remington to the range. This is not my first range trip with it, and I'm trying to fine tune a load with LeveRevolution powder and the 220gr Speer before a black bear hunt in a couple of weeks.

Brass is all Remington, trimmed to the same lenth. COAL is matching, and the normal primer for my loads has been the WLR primer as that was the one I saw listed most often on this site with regard to the 35 Remington. My first range session had suggested an accuracy node around the 42.0gr mark (1.5 inch group vs 2.5 inch group at other levels) so that too is my baseline.
I cleaned the rifle barrel this past weekend, so made 7 of my baseline 42.0gr loads to foul the barrel and give a baseline.
Shots were all done round robin once I finished my initial 7 shots of 42.0gr.

Here is that target (scope adjusted up after first 2 shots):


Top 3 shots measure at 1.495 inches.

I then ran through a load at 41.7 grains which meaured at 1.748:


and a load at 42.3 grains which measured at 1.158:



Using my base 42.0 grain load I tried two different primers to see if a primer swap would make any difference.

Here is the Federal 210M primer at 1.243 inches:


and the CCI 200 primer load at 1.843 inches. In case you are wondering, the first two shots are the almost-two-in-one upper shots. I was severely disappointed at shot #3:


Here are the speeds for each load:


What I notice -
The 42.3gr load was the smallest of the 41.7/42.0/42.3 test.
The Fed 210M primer gave me a slightly better group than the other primers.
My rifle always puts 2 shots near each other and a 3rd further out.

If I follow this logic, should I try the Federal primer with the 42.3gr LVR load and see if I can get twice the improvement? :D
Or do you have other suggestions?

Thanks!
 

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Given that black bear hunting, as I understand it, is done at relatively close range a lot of this is gilding the lily. Pinpoint accuracy is likely not required. The 220 Speer should work well even if you luck out and a big bear wanders by.

Do not be disappointed or surprised the rifle puts two in almost one hole and the third a ways out. This is the nature of barrelband carbines and indicates you have a typical, but also accurate, rifle. Rarely will you have a chance to fire more than two rounds on a hunt. You have a GOOD rifle. Rejoice.

Given that relatively few groups were fired per load, you really don't know anything. A number of groups must be fired to draw concrete conclusions. Is the accuracy repeatable or just an anomaly? Will more shooting show different group sizes? Likely so. Given that all groups show the first two shots close together, you can really pick any of the loads and do well. Maybe you want to increase the throttle a little?

I see nothing so far that indicates an accuracy "node." All you've done is indicate it groups the first two close together and the third a bit out.

Make sure the barrel is absolutely, positively cold or ambient temperature before firing another group. This gives the rifle the best chance of replicating the conditions found on a hunt, and the best chance for accuracy. This entails waiting a while between groups on a warm day.
 

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I would be happy and go kill a bear.
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Given that black bear hunting, as I understand it, is done at relatively close range a lot of this is gilding the lily. Pinpoint accuracy is likely not required. The 220 Speer should work well even if you luck out and a big bear wanders by.

Do not be disappointed or surprised the rifle puts two in almost one hole and the third a ways out. This is the nature of barrelband carbines and indicates you have a typical, but also accurate, rifle. Rarely will you have a chance to fire more than two rounds on a hunt. You have a GOOD rifle. Rejoice.

Given that relatively few groups were fired per load, you really don't know anything. A number of groups must be fired to draw concrete conclusions. Is the accuracy repeatable or just an anomaly? Will more shooting show different group sizes? Likely so. Given that all groups show the first two shots close together, you can really pick any of the loads and do well. Maybe you want to increase the throttle a little?

I see nothing so far that indicates an accuracy "node." All you've done is indicate it groups the first two close together and the third a bit out.

Make sure the barrel is absolutely, positively cold or ambient temperature before firing another group. This gives the rifle the best chance of replicating the conditions found on a hunt, and the best chance for accuracy. This entails waiting a while between groups on a warm day.
I had joked with my Dad when I was driving home from work this evening that if I only had to shoot twice at a bear I'd be fine.

There were 3-5 minutes between each and every shot, shooting 1 shot at each of the 4 targets in round robin fashion (order of 41.7, 42.3, F210, CCI200 then start over) and no problem keeping the barrel cool. 59-62 degrees ambient this morning.
It was not always the 3rd shot that was the outlier; sorry if it sounded like that was the case. I just know for sure it happened on the CCI200 load.

I called 42.0 a node based on previous testing of 40.5/41.0/41.5/42.0/42.5/43.0 charges in this rifle, all of which were 2.5 inch 3 shot groups except for the 42.0gr group at 1.5 inches. The 41.7 and 42.3 were just to see if the 1.5in at 42.0gr I saw during that testing a few weeks ago and repeated since then was the best it would do, or if a slight tweak one way or the other would help it. Since today the 42.3 was a bit better I may just try a bit higher and see if it opens up again like it did 2 weeks ago.
I do notice that the F210M primer also gave me a bit more velocity than the WLR or the CCI.

Allegedly my stand is about 75 yards from the bait, but there may be shots up to 200 yards. My Dad had one at that distance last year, but heavy winds kept him from taking the shot.
And yes, I'm used to my bolt action rifles which can do exceptionally well. If I can get this one down to an inch at 100 yards I'd be thrilled. :D
 

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Dr. Vette,
Minute of angle accuracy is really not needed in a hunting rifles for big game. It seems that MOA accuracy is the Holy Grail of anything that goes bang today but it is really needed in a hunting situation? When that bear appears over your bait, are you going to have soft rest on which to place your rifle? Are you going to have all the time in the world to set up for your shot? Are you going to be able to control your breathing while looking through your rifle's scope at Mr. Black Bear? Any of your listed targets is adequate for the task at hand when it comes to hunting big game. Just go out and enjoy your hunt. Any misses at 100 yards will not be the fault of your rifle. Remember, your kill zone is at least 15" in diameter.

My two Marlin .35 Remington rifles, a 1963 336SC and a 1979 336C, are as different as night and day. The 336SC is an 1.5" group shooting rifle all day long, any day, with any load. A more consistent grouping rifle may be out there, but I have not found it yet. On the other hand, my 336C was born a lever action but grew up thinking it was a finely tuned bolt gun! If it does not group three shots touching, target after target after target, there is something wrong with ammo or the shooter. Did the deer that have fallen to both know that the 336SC was not a MOA rifle?

Enjoy,
358 Win
 
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Given that black bear hunting, as I understand it, is done at relatively close range a lot of this is gilding the lily. Pinpoint accuracy is likely not required. The 220 Speer should work well even if you luck out and a big bear wanders by.

Do not be disappointed or surprised the rifle puts two in almost one hole and the third a ways out. This is the nature of barrelband carbines and indicates you have a typical, but also accurate, rifle. Rarely will you have a chance to fire more than two rounds on a hunt. You have a GOOD rifle. Rejoice.

Given that relatively few groups were fired per load, you really don't know anything. A number of groups must be fired to draw concrete conclusions. Is the accuracy repeatable or just an anomaly? Will more shooting show different group sizes? Likely so. Given that all groups show the first two shots close together, you can really pick any of the loads and do well. Maybe you want to increase the throttle a little?

I see nothing so far that indicates an accuracy "node." All you've done is indicate it groups the first two close together and the third a bit out.

Make sure the barrel is absolutely, positively cold or ambient temperature before firing another group. This gives the rifle the best chance of replicating the conditions found on a hunt, and the best chance for accuracy. This entails waiting a while between groups on a warm day.

I am having the same problem with a load of 37.0 of leverlution and the remington 150 gr Core-lock. Two shots touching and the third 1-2 to 2 inches out.

Chocdog
 

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A sub inch 336 is very very unlikely. Don't pursue the unattainable.

Three to five minutes between shots is a completely invalid method of testing loads. Think about that for a minute......and then ask why that is so.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Three to five minutes between shots is a completely invalid method of testing loads. Think about that for a minute......and then ask why that is so.
I don't agree with this comment, and this method has worked well for me for years.
Every shot is essentially a cold bore shot, just as the first one will be in the field. I don't ever need two shots.

If there is evidence to the contrary I would be interested in knowing what it is.
 

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And in declaring the presence of a "node".....that needs to be based on considerable number of groups, not just a couple per load. Statistics always are the key to valid load testing.
 

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Never need two shots? You never do.....until you do. What the rifle does as the barrel warms is essential with a capital E. The second shot may be sorely needed. Only a Druid would think he would NEVER need a second shot.

Smart load testing covers likely contingencies......all of them. What the rifle does as the barrel warms is Load Testing 101.

Load testing needs to cover events that occur when things go wrong not just when things go right. To date, I've never needed a seat belt but I wear one anyway.
 

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Ross Seyfried probably described "single shot" testing best. The idea is not to fire shots three minutes apart when some barrel warmth may be left, but when the rifle is dead cold from morning chill....and follow that shot up seven hours later when the ambient temperature is forty or fifty degrees warmer. How consistent is the rifle then? Does it hit consistent to point of aim? How about a day or week later?

The point is you are testing the rifle and load under varying conditions possible on a hunt. Since hunting includes extremes and possible follow up shots, if you are interested in relevant information along that line, that's the only way to obtain it. The sun warms barrels just as thoroughly, if not more so, than a previously fired round or three.The longer the range the more this matters.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I have valued your input on the 35 Remington and various loads. I wish they were arranged in an easy-to-search manner, but as it is they are difficult to find on this forum. I've read as many as I can.

Having said that, I believe that we will agree to disagree on methodology. You'll probably leave this thread shaking your head and wondering about me, and I can live with that.
What I do works for me; that's probably enough said.

I'm going back to lurking, searching and reading now as it appears to be a better role for me on this forum.

Have a blessed day.
 

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Vette, you DID ask, both in the original post and the one before this latest, and I took pains to explain exactly why. It did not appear you wanted agreement, but rather ideas.

You got them, along with the explanation you requested. I can do no better, and if you don't want an exchange of ideas that you yourself asked for, not asking and not participating may indeed suit you better.

You're quite right about one thing.....I view disinterest in duplicating barrel temperature variations as somewhat mystifying. Barrel band carbines are notorious for being sensitive to such things, and that is indeed Levergun Testing 101.
 

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I was working with my grandfathers model 99 in 300 savage a few years back and it was notorious for shooting 2 bullets touching with the 3rd bullet out. I started seating the bullets on new test loads a few thousands deeper and now have a 1 inch rifle.

The Remington 150 gr core lock is longer than comparable 150 gr bullets with a flat nose. I am going to seat the next batch of test of test loads below the cannalure with no crimp of course and see what happens on paper. Does the 30-30 really need a crimp as I am only using a partial crimp on my present loads??

chocdog
 

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Does your current amount of neck tension with the bullet you are using resist the bullet shoving in the case when HARD pressure is placed against the bullet nose such as when shoving the bullet end of the completed cartridge against your bench with all the force you can muster? That may suffice. Ideally I'd like a crimp if the rifle is subject to rough handling. Give the bullet end of the cartridge a few hard whacks against a wood board to simulate magazine tube jarring. What happens then?

It is case neck tension that does most of the holding, but the cannelure can and does act as a stop when a crimp is applied. A crimp applied elsewhere, event a Lee factory crimp, does not have the same value as a crimp in a recessed area of the bullet. The reason has to do with the "smooth" sides of the formed LFCD "cannelure" being less of a positive stop than a real cannelure.

Consider a compressed load of powder like bulky 4064 to aid with bullet retention. A friend and I settled on 35.5 grains IMR 4064 with a 150 as producing a chronographed 2300 fps from a 20 inch barrel in his model 94 30-30, which is all that is realistically possible at SAAMI spec pressures in a 30-30 with that barrel length. That charge weight might prompt a few questions, and I am prepared to answer them.
 
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