The 25-36 case length is 2.12 and a 25-35 is 2.04 with the only real difference being in the length of the neck.Cant help you on reforming from 30-30 as Iuse new production 25-35 brass in my 1893 rifle.Since the 30-30 is the same length as 25-35 you will have a short necked 25-36,but more like 25-35.I say short necked as the 30-30 brass will grow in length when down sized,but probably not as far as .080BillyHill said:
25-36 case forming
Hello All. I have a bunch of 30-30 brass that I want to turn into 25-35 brass. I have very little experience with case forming. I was thinking about starting with a 7m-08 die and then a .260 Rem if I could find one. Has anyone had experience with forming 30-30 to 25-35? I think doing it in in one step is probably too much to expect. Does anyone know what the case length for the 25-36 should be as I am doing this for a buddy with and old Model 93?
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All in all,I dont think you'll find much difference,no matter how you choose to form your brass.I also would recommend the Hornady 117gr RN bullet.They feed and shoot well in my 1893.
Thanks for the reply Levergunz. Where you able to get loads as fast as 25-35 factory loads or should a person load them down in an old Model -93. I've heard that original 25-36 loads where only loaded to 1800 fps. That may be a myth. Did factory 25-35 ammo work OK in yours? If they do I guess I could chronograph them to get some idea of what to expect.
Billy Hill
The .25-36 Marlin ( case length 2.130") was developed originally from the .32-40 Marlin and Ballard ( case length 2.130") and this brass(.32-40) is still available. The .30-30 case is too short at 2.039" and so is the .25-35 Winchester case at 2.043". There is a theoretical disadvantage to using too short a case and that is that it may result in chamber rings being cut by the hot gases. In a beater rifle I don't suppose it matters, but if your rifle is a good one I would try for the correct length of brass. I use an R.C.B.S. forming die on .32-40 brass and although it's an expensive die it works very well. I have no experience as to whether a .25-36 M. sizing die would work or not.
As one note of caution for what it's worth it's been said that one can chamber and fire .25-35 W cartridges through a .26-36 M chamber, and while this may be true, when I did it (to see what would happen !!) the brass flowed forward so much that there were visible incipient case head separation marks at the base of every case fired. Without question they would have separated completely had I reloaded them so they were discarded. The .25-35 Winchester is loaded hotter than the .25-36 Marlin was and I can attest to that simply by the felt recoil. Cartridges of the World suggest that the Winchester round is good for deer sized game but cautions that the Marlin round is not so. The .25-36 Marlin was originally loaded to 1330 feet per second and that's where we should be reloading them to this day. It's my view that if we want 1800 f.p.s. then we should go buy a .25-35 Winchester (God forbid).
The .25-36 Marlin ( case length 2.130") was developed originally from the .32-40 Marlin and Ballard ( case length 2.130") and this brass(.32-40) is still available. The .30-30 case is too short at 2.039" and so is the .25-35 Winchester case at 2.043". There is a theoretical disadvantage to using too short a case and that is that it may result in chamber rings being cut by the hot gases. In a beater rifle I don't suppose it matters, but if your rifle is a good one I would try for the correct length of brass. I use an R.C.B.S. forming die on .32-40 brass and although it's an expensive die it works very well. I have no experience as to whether a .25-36 M. sizing die would work or not.
As one note of caution for what it's worth it's been said that one can chamber and fire .25-35 W cartridges through a .26-36 M chamber, and while this may be true, when I did it (to see what would happen !!) the brass flowed forward so much that there were visible incipient case head separation marks at the base of every case fired. Without question they would have separated completely had I reloaded them so they were discarded. The .25-35 Winchester is loaded hotter than the .25-36 Marlin was and I can attest to that simply by the felt recoil. Cartridges of the World suggest that the Winchester round is good for deer sized game but cautions that the Marlin round is not so. The .25-36 Marlin was originally loaded to 1330 feet per second and that's where we should be reloading them to this day. It's my view that if we want 1800 f.p.s. then we should go buy a .25-35 Winchester (God forbid).
Hi Smithywess, thanks for your reply. I'm not interested in a 25-35 Win, I am doing this for a friend who has a Model 93 25-36. If I have to load to lower pressure that can be easily done. As far as possible case separation, you cant assume too much without actually measuring headspace in your rifle. On those "hot" loads are there any primers flattening or protruding? Did you measure the case width 1/2 inch above the rim? So far the most credible information that I could obtain (Chuck Hawks) indicates that the 25-36 was originally loaded to 1855fps with a 117 grn bullet. If they were only supposed to take 1300 fps I think a factory 25-35 load going 1000 fps faster would have pretty disastrous results. Why would the model 93 be able to shoot 30-30 ammo at factory pressure but only take 1300 fps in a 25-36? My friend says he shoots 25-35 ammo in it now but loaded ammo is hard to find where I live.
Hello Billyhill,
I apologise if there's been any misunderstanding but what I meant was that if you keep the loads down to blackpowder speeds,in your smokeless loadings, in these old rifles one generally gets better accuracy and fewer problems such as leading. At least that's what I've found in the .25-36 Marlin working with the gas checked R.C.B.S. flat nosed cast bullet in 100 grain weight. In the catalogue of 1897 two bullet weights are advertised firstly the metal patched bullet of,as you say, 117 grains, and a second one of a metal patched bullet of 106 grains. The former bullet, they say, was driven at 2000 f.p.s. and the second one at the slower speed of 1450 f.p.s. A third bullet weight of 86 grains is quoted as being a short range bullet up to 100 yards but no speed of flight is documented. These are strong rifles and I'm sure that pressures generating 1800 to 2000 f.p.s. are safe to fire but at what cost to accuracy and leading even if gas checks are used. The only modern 117 grain bullet I can see is Hornady's jacketed round nose, and I am not partial to shooting jacketed bullets through these old rifles with their softer steels.
As for the incipient case head separations I experienced firing .25-35 Winchester factory ammunition in my .25-36 Marlin rifle I have to say there were no overt signs of increased pressure or abnormal headspace. The primers weren't backed out or flattened. I simply give you my own experience firing these cartridges in my own rifle and not yours. You may have no problem.
I apologise if there's been any misunderstanding but what I meant was that if you keep the loads down to blackpowder speeds,in your smokeless loadings, in these old rifles one generally gets better accuracy and fewer problems such as leading. At least that's what I've found in the .25-36 Marlin working with the gas checked R.C.B.S. flat nosed cast bullet in 100 grain weight. In the catalogue of 1897 two bullet weights are advertised firstly the metal patched bullet of,as you say, 117 grains, and a second one of a metal patched bullet of 106 grains. The former bullet, they say, was driven at 2000 f.p.s. and the second one at the slower speed of 1450 f.p.s. A third bullet weight of 86 grains is quoted as being a short range bullet up to 100 yards but no speed of flight is documented. These are strong rifles and I'm sure that pressures generating 1800 to 2000 f.p.s. are safe to fire but at what cost to accuracy and leading even if gas checks are used. The only modern 117 grain bullet I can see is Hornady's jacketed round nose, and I am not partial to shooting jacketed bullets through these old rifles with their softer steels.
As for the incipient case head separations I experienced firing .25-35 Winchester factory ammunition in my .25-36 Marlin rifle I have to say there were no overt signs of increased pressure or abnormal headspace. The primers weren't backed out or flattened. I simply give you my own experience firing these cartridges in my own rifle and not yours. You may have no problem.
Billyhill,
I dont shoot factory cartridges in my rifle.I just use new brass for reloads and load the Hornady 117 RN to about 1800 fps.Works well in my rifle and no out of ordinary problems.These 1893s were made of special smokeless steel and are suitable for jacketed or lead bullets.I used the 25-36 one time during a doe season.It does work with a carefully aimed shot and keep reasonable with the range.My doe was taken at 45 yards.My rifle is a shooter grade ,but really does not get that much use.I could use the longer brass of the 32-40,but I keep my supplies of brass in that caliber strictly for my 32-40 which is a much nicer rifle.If I could not shoot any of my rifles I would put it on GB.I no longer keep rifles I dont shoot.
I dont shoot factory cartridges in my rifle.I just use new brass for reloads and load the Hornady 117 RN to about 1800 fps.Works well in my rifle and no out of ordinary problems.These 1893s were made of special smokeless steel and are suitable for jacketed or lead bullets.I used the 25-36 one time during a doe season.It does work with a carefully aimed shot and keep reasonable with the range.My doe was taken at 45 yards.My rifle is a shooter grade ,but really does not get that much use.I could use the longer brass of the 32-40,but I keep my supplies of brass in that caliber strictly for my 32-40 which is a much nicer rifle.If I could not shoot any of my rifles I would put it on GB.I no longer keep rifles I dont shoot.
To Leverguns and Smithywess. I never assume that anyones hand loads load will be safe in my rifle or mine in their rifle. I thank you both for your input as it comes from real experience with forming 25-36 cases, something which I lack. I will take it all in consideration and plan to take it slow and safe. I was thinking about trying leverevolution powder as it seems to show good results in the 25-35 without excess pressure. Right now I am hoping to get a die set from a friend as I don't own a 25-35 or 25-36 myself. Thanks again.
I built up a 25 35 Ack Improved years back. As I recall, if I went straight into the 25 die with new 30 30 brass, I lost way too many cases from crunching the necks.
Only way I cured it was to go into a 7 die first. Cant recall which 7 I used, likely a 7 57 die. Of course ya have to dink with adjusting everything, and just hit the neck only, THEN go into your 25 on the next step. I dont see why any 7 die with the short enough body would not work. 7 08 etc.
Of course that the case turned into an improved, has nothing to do with the process of initial necking down. Same process would work with your conversion. Not enough brass is being moved to worry about needing turned, Just check overall length I guess, though I doubt they would grow TOO much when dragging the expander out, and a little lube inside cant hurt either.
Typically separation comes from being resized too much, even with a light load. Neck size only, and brass will last a long time with light loads. Of course ya might not be able to interchange brass with different guns.
Only way I cured it was to go into a 7 die first. Cant recall which 7 I used, likely a 7 57 die. Of course ya have to dink with adjusting everything, and just hit the neck only, THEN go into your 25 on the next step. I dont see why any 7 die with the short enough body would not work. 7 08 etc.
Of course that the case turned into an improved, has nothing to do with the process of initial necking down. Same process would work with your conversion. Not enough brass is being moved to worry about needing turned, Just check overall length I guess, though I doubt they would grow TOO much when dragging the expander out, and a little lube inside cant hurt either.
Typically separation comes from being resized too much, even with a light load. Neck size only, and brass will last a long time with light loads. Of course ya might not be able to interchange brass with different guns.
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