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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Has anyone encountered sticky extraction in a 1893? I have a 30-30 and I'm using the lightest book load of 2400 for a 170gr cast boolit. I'm wondering if my chamber is bad or bulged or something hard to detect. I'm going to give it a good cleaning and see if I can't shed some light on it. I've fixed this issue on another rifle by honing the chamber area with a small bottle hone in a battery drill. The barrel had to be removed and I'm not looking forward to doing it on my 93.
 

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Sparky, I'd start with a pair of calipers and go over the brass looking for bulges and on the outside looking for marks impressed on the outside. Never had it happen to me before so I'd probably be calling someone more knowledgable than me. Is the brass pretty close to trim-to length?
 

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Sparky, John has give good advice, that would be the first thing that I would check. Next would be to chesk for some anomaly with the load by trying a different powder. 2400 has not performed well for me in rifles.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Brass is correct length, Sunday I stuck a case and had to tap it out when I returned home. I was working up a ladder and figured I had surpassed its comfort zone. Keep in mind I'm still on the low end of things and I'm not pushing the old girl with anything stiff. I was only a 1.5 grains higher than where I began. I returned to the range today with a handful of previously fine loads and it was a no go. Each one came out with resistance. :hmmmm:
 

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Hey there Sc -- Close inspection of your empty cases may tell the tale. A magnifier is highly recommended. Sometimes the issue is kinda obvious and sometimes not. Here is a clot in a chamber that was fairly obvious and it hung in there like grim death...

View attachment 99597

With some of these older guns there is pitting in chambers. Some is easier to see, as around this case neck...

View attachment 99598

And some is not so easy to see, as this about two thirds of the way up from the rim...

View attachment 99599

The issues in the last picture were the most problematic as far as extraction were concerned.

I believe that once you damage a chamber, it will be nothing if not expensive to fix. There for I'm super reluctant to stick any "hone-like" objects in there. I have had good success with a couple segments of cleaning rod chucked in a cordless drill with nothing but a bronze wire bore brush with a Hoppes soaked patch wrapped around it. With the bolt removed, you can go after it from the breech end. Something on the order of a shotgun rod with a .410 brush may play well. The .416 caliber brush would be another good option.

Bronze bore brushes are cheap and expendable in my economy. I should own stock in Kleen-Bore I use so many!

Hope this helps. Best regards. Wind
 

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Sparky, In addition to our other discussion...

I'd anneal a handful of fired brass that will go in the chamber with no more than finger pressure then shoot that handful and see what your datum point is on the shoulder next to unfired brass. Obviously you'll be looking for better extraction from them as well.

That cartride is headspacing on the rim so maybe its pushing your brass forward enough to cause pressure problems as well. If you primer is backing out .015 then that is on the outside edge of functional bolt tolerance - if I'm reading John Taylor correctly. As a precaution I'd trim them under the trim-to lenght before that experiment.

Just a thought from a novice with the 30-30.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
All good advice and very welcome. I will be going to my smith tomorrow among other things I will get him to inspect it while I'm there.
A few months ago I finished a custom rifle and pt&g supplied the reamer. Upon completion It was plagued with sticky extraction. Pt&g recommended use a ball hone on the chamber to put a cross hatch pattern on the walls to aid in extraction. Worked exactly as advertised. Im just throwing that out there as food for thought. Hopefully this won't be something severe.
 

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Sparky,
I think taking it to smith's is a good idea, at least get a good inspection, hopefully they will the tools to do so. I had a very similar problem with one of my Marlin 30-30's, sticky extraction, I had to drive the brass out. My gunsmith polished my chamber and now the empty cases will extract, no problem. EXCEPT, I still have really bulged cases that are a you know what to resize, they are bulged that bad. I did a chamber casting and it matched up with the what the bulged brass was telling me. I am now not very confident in my chamber and am in the final stages of figuring out who to send it to for some chamber work, thinking I would be rather be safe than sorry.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
The brass bulges about a quarter of the way up from the headstamp. Anyone have experience with this issue?
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Plano, it appears to be what they call ringed chamber. Sometimes happens when using fillers on light loads. That what I'm reading anyway. Brass bulges in a donut that needs to pulled back through a smaller diameter area to extract the cartridge. Depending on the load it's very difficult. It's quite a bulge.
 

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Sparky, the more I read on ringed chambers the more confused I get. Some references say its a line around the circumference... distinct, almost like a fault line. That doesn't sound like a bulged area to me but a definite and distinct ring which would or should leave a signiture on you brass. Just a bulge... I don't know what gives.

I do know first hand some folks who claim to have dealt with "ringed" chambers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
SgtDog, you may be correct. Strictly a novice here. When I got to looking for things resembling my situation it was the closest thing I could find and I didn't really know anything better to label it. The bulge does go all the way around. Extraction leaves a nice shiny belt around the case in the middle. I will take a pic and post it for anyone interested.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
K IMG_20140412_121944_064.jpg
This bulge is .005" larger than the diameter at the base up against the rim. Probably larger prior to extraction (resizing). This load is the bottom end of the light load chart. Anything slightly above has to be driven out with a dowel.
 

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Hey Sparky,

Upon seeing the photo of the cases I would be very concerned about the safety of that barrel. That is not the normal bulge that appear on cases nearer the base. You indeed have a ringed chamber and I would strongly recommend a new barrel not a reline. A reline would be a Band-Aid on a stressed chamber...relining would cover up the ring but the stress is still there and may let go at some time when least expected. Install another barrel and reline it if necessary. Just my humble opinion.

P
 

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Sparky, Probably my fault for blurring the issue by mentioning ringed chambers... I don’t KNOW anything about the topic but I did ask if you had "a ring of abrasion around your brass where your extractor and chamber are acting as a sizer - and sizing the bulge back down during extraction", and I did that while talking about ringed chambers. Whatever the cause, you sure-enough have a ‘ring of abrasion’ on that piece of brass which indicates the brass is fire-forming on a bulge in the chamber.

Gonna likely have to deal with it from the looks of it.
So far I’m counting three suggestions for mitigation before you are forced to something more extreme:
1.) From over on ASSRA they talked about honing and or lapping.2.)From over on Castboolits they talked about sleeving.
3.) And from another source you got the ball honing/cross hatching business. (would that give you as much control over exactly where it changed dimensions as a conventional honing process would - like we do with a slotted rod and a sizing die??)

I reckon you got some decisions to make. Whatever you do I’d sure go slow and get all the input you can.

I got two questions:
1.)Did you shoot any from this rifle initially where you didn’t experience difficulty extracting?2.)And second, it’s not clear from the picture but is that case mouth stepped, like it ran into the “step” in the chamber for the case mouth.

I know I’m beating a dead horse here but be certain that excessive headspace is not allowing the brass to be stretched forward enough upon firing for the case to get a second crimp by the step. If it did, who knows, that would create a pressure spike, and a pressure spike my exaggerate the fire-forming going on in your chamber.

John (who really doesn't know squat about ringed or bulged chambers but who is intrigued by the problem and hoping for the simplest workaround)
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
It was used brass that I full length sized. It measured ok on length and I saw that had what appeared several uses of a lee crimp die on the mouth. While that did get my attention the bulge was what made me walk away for the evening. I think I'm best case at a reline. And Plano has brought a new element into the fray. I fired a few rounds through it using a bottom charge of 2400 in the Lyman manual. While not quite as tame as unique it's still pretty low. Measuring one case at a time twice and seating a bullet before moving to the next. I'm a little cautious since I rebuilt my 260. The first few shots extracted fair leading me to believe the chamber might be a little rough. But when I climbed to the next step in the ladder 1/2 grain higher it locked it in. Second trip to the range I loaded the previous bottom load in it and same extraction only just a little stiff. My thoughts were at the time the old girl was gonna have a sure low tolerance and my loads were indeed gonna be light. Not knowing much about 110 year old lever actions I didn't really know what to expect honestly. It appears my learning curve steepens.
 

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Hey Sparky... That Lee crimp die would explain what the photo captured.

On my 38-55 I took it up to 1455fps and that was enough for me. I'll be down around 1350fps from here on out based on my benchmark testing.

For anyone else, this a pretty 'fair' link about Chamber Ringing... Appears to me to be a distinct line, as opposed to a bulged area, but here it is for yourself to read. The latter half sounds like a confessional at an AA meeting for those who are coming clean to the world that they too have ringed one of their rifles. Ha Ha. Also here is evidence that it can be dealt with a number of ways, which would be comforting were you so unfortunate. Chapter 6.5 Wads And Fillers - Cast Bullets For Beginner And Expert
 
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