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10mm /.40 S&W

3K views 40 replies 23 participants last post by  bassetman1974 
#1 ·
Opinions please...

Just snagged a near new condition Ruger marked P94, not P944 as the litituature states. Looks like less than a box of ammo went through it. Have a poop ton of .40 brass - processing it daly. Had a BREN -10. (BREN-WHEN is what we called it in those days because the gun came with no mags) Should of held on to it longer since they are now out of sight. Traded it for a new Colt Government in stainless for Deputy Duty.

The .40s and 10mm have got my wheels spinning again. Opinions, comments on the 10mm and Ruger's oversized 1911 oversized 10mm please? I am a big fan of John Browning and his 1911.

Ac
 
#3 ·
AC,
I carried a SW .40 as a duty weapon. I liked the round and found it to be more than adequate to put down injured deer. It was a more snappy recoil, in the hand than the .45 and 9mm, but not difficult to handle.
As far as placing it against the 10mm, I cannot offer an opinion. I have never shot the 10mm.
Andrew
 
#9 ·
#7 · (Edited)
I have been a proponent of the 10mm ever since it first appeared.
Never owned a Bren 10, as it never appealed to me, but I acquired a Delta Gold Cup in 1990, as soon as Colt got the bugs worked out, and now have a Delta Elite as well that I purchased a few years ago.
As a prior poster noted, most factory loads are toned down nowadays , so if you want to achieve the full potential of the round, Handloading is a big plus.
I purchased 100 boxes of Winchester 175 grain Silvertips in the early 90's, so I am pretty well set for full power factory ammunition. But I reload a good bit, mainly with Hornady 155's and 180's.
I have shot 2 deer with the Silvertips in the past, and both were one shot DRT experiences. One at about 40 yds, and the other at less than 20 yds. So I can say the 10mm will definitely do the job if you do your part.
I like the 1911 in general, and the10mm in particular,
as it works very well in the 1911.
I have smaller than average hands for a man my size, so a high capacity pistol, with its accordingly fatter
grip doesn't interest me.
I figure if I cant get it done with 8 rds, I am laying down on the job.
 
#15 ·
I've never owned or fired a Glock anything, or a 10mm anything. But I find the Glock 40 to be very - interesting. If I had the money in hand, that would be the only Glock model I'd ask them to pull out of the showcase. And I can't explain why.....
 
#13 ·
I have to admit, I like both rounds.
I have several chambered in .40 S&W, and one Glock 20 Gen3 chambered in 10mm. I do admit, that the extra round capacity of the Glock is quite nice.
In the .40's, I like to handload 155 & 165 gr bullets, because for self defense, it does quite well. They're quite good penetrators on vehicles or semi hard objects, and have as much muzzle energy as a .357 magnum, hence the "snappiness" of it. I have found 2 good pistols that help the felt recoil of the .40, a Ruger SR40, it's bore axis is quite low, and the Beretta PX4, with it's rotating barrel that helps bleed enough energy to keep the snappiness controlled.
Now, with the Glock 20, I like to use 180's, because in a hunting situation, they're quite remarkable! Yes, the G20 has the snappiness, but I've found it much more pleasurable to shoot than the double action revolver magnums. I have big hands, and like the size of the G20's grip, and the feel.
Also, they're is another pistol new on the market, and it won't hurt the wallet like a new Ruger SR1911, and it's the Springfield XDM in 10mm. I have a buddy who just bought one, and he loves it. The Springfield XDM line has been extremely accurate in .40, and now 10mm.

Sent from my motorola one using Tapatalk
 
#14 ·
I've dabbled with the 40S&W since 1990, the year it was introduced, and the 10mm since 2012, and I like them both. I currently carry a 40S&W on duty, and while there are other calibers I wouldn't mind carrying, the 40 does the job just fine. 43 rounds on board, 15 in the S&W M&P fullsize, and two spare mags on the duty belt. One thing both the 10 and the 40 have going for them is good sectional density, they will penetrate various targets VERY well unless you tell them not to, via rapid expansion or "reduced" bullet weight. Both rounds were designed around the 180 grain hollow point, and while other weights have come along, the 180 still sees a lot of use. I prefer the somewhat lighter slugs in the 40, namely the 155-165 grain rounds, they give me a little more velocity, but if I want a real speedster for even less penetration, the 135 grain load gets the nod at a screaming 1350fps+.

Duty ammo for the 40 runs from good to excellent, as usual the Speer Gold Dots and various other bonded-core rounds are available at Boutique prices, but the load I see most often is the good old Hornady Critical Defense 165 grainer. It penetrates soft targets well, expands like nobody's business, and can be found just about anywhere. There's a lot to love, and Hornady make VERY good stuff. (The Critical DUTY load, in my testing, isn't much for expansion. Great on auto bodies and glass, but the cores are hard as a hooker's heart, and a shot into unprotected flesh is likely to result in a pass-through wound, unless you're shooting Jabba The Hut.) :embarassed:

I currently have several 40's, I sold my Shield to a badge guy who wanted it when I replaced it with the 45 version, but I still have a Ruger SR-40, a Witness Match, my M&P Howdy Doody gun, and a couple of carbines so chambered. I like them all, and have reloaded enough 40 ammo to sink a small fleet of Dinghys. It's a very forgiving round, and brass lasts almost forever, unless you really pound it hard. My first 40 was an EAA Witness I put about 55,000 rounds through before I passed it onto my son, who still carries it occasionally, and it's still battle-ready. All-steel guns may be a pain to carry, but they last a LONG time. I've had six Witnesses, and they were all worth more than I paid for them. Here are a few, with the 10mm third down and the well-used 40 on the bottom.



The Ten Millimeter is an awesome round, but I didn't find one I could afford until 2012, then I pounced on a Witness I found languishing in a local Funshop for about half what it was worth. I sold it about a year ago but almost immediately replaced it with a Kimber, the Custom II, which I like even better. Yes, it's heavy, and it's no compact, but it delivers the goods and doesn't toss the brass into a different zip code, so we get along pretty well.



The Ten rocks in pistols, but if you really want to shake things up, look into the tens (and 40's) in carbine form. There is some VERY cool stuff out there, and adding more barrel length only makes good ballistics better! :bandit:



 
#16 ·
10mm is to 40 S&W what 357 Magnum is to 38 Spcl. I believe case length is right at 0.14" longer on both the hotter cartridges. So for all intents and purposes, a 10mm is a 40 S&W magnum.

There are 2 ways to look at 40 S&W
...the best of both worlds WRT mag capacity vs 45 ACP and KE vs 9mm, or...
...the worst of both worlds WRT mag capacity vs 9mm and KE vs 45 ACP.

I hold the latter view, and always have. IMO, 40 S&W was a solution in search of a problem.

YMMV.
 
#17 ·
I had a Delta Elite in 10mm when they first came out, and loved it. I really liked the 10mm and its performance. I wont argue stats but from shooting it would say it was a step up from the old .45acp where as arguably, the .40s&w was a step down, ploughing the furrow between the .45acp and 9mmp.

I also had a BHP in .40, and loved that. A very manageable calibre with good performance. I wont argue the stats, no doubt someone will come back with MV and weights and accuracy etc. I just know how they felt to use and what I could and could not hit.

Oh and the BREN 10, interesting gun. Cooper was I think ahead of his time, again but the gun diddnt quite do it for me. Very few around, I think collectors have them tucked away. Along with the Tranters in 9mm and .40 which we made in the 80s. I never see or hear about any of them. If I diddnt have the magazine articles and pictures I might think I dreamt it.
 
#22 · (Edited)
Agents Dove and Grogan were killed in a serious shootout with some very skilled and well armed bad guys (Miami 1986). It was an engagement much examined by agencies all over the place after, including by me. Correct me if mistaken, its been a long time. It was a rolling stop of two armed bank robbers. I am pretty sure they had Min14s and handguns and used them to effect, lots of fire and movement. The FBI agents were outgunned and outclassed. Without going into the detail, and I remember quite a lot, the issue for the FBI was ineffective calibre's, especially 9mmP. The bad guys took hits and one in particular would surely die, but not before killing two agents. Hence they went looking for more effective calibre's.

If you google it I am sure you can read up on it, many lessons were learned. From the agent who removed his handgun and placed it on the car seat beside him, only to spend the entire engagement looking for it when it slipped away to the agent killed when he lost his glasses, and couldn't see the guy shooting at him. They had shotguns I think but no rifles. Obviously a long time ago, but the search for more effective calibre's and weapons followed.

I still have the after incident report somewhere. It actually makes sad reading. Pretty sure they made a movie about it, never saw it though.
 
#19 ·
I purchased a Glock mod. 40 MOS earlier this year. I have a little over 100 rounds thru it. I really enjoy shooting it and took a young buck this past weekend with it. I was shooting the 180 grn. Sig V-crown ammo. Bullet mushroomed nicely. Max expansion was .691 and weighed 175.2 grns. When I get a chance, I'll post a photo of the bullet. The shot was around 25-27 yards, deer ran about 35 yards and fell over dead.
 
#21 ·
I'm a 1911, 45 ACP user. I've tried Glocks and just never liked the feel. That's purely subjective but isn't that what it's all about?

I wanted something MORE for the woods. My choice was a 10mm long slide from Kimber. The recoil and time to return to target are too much for my liking when compared to a 1911 in .45. However, those are not detrimental to woods carry, hunting, or bear defense. For those purposes the 10mm cartridge shines. So, while I do not recommend a 10mm for duty or concealed carry, it is THE auto cartridge for the outdoors.

The .40 S&W never appealed to me. Why would I want a weakened version of the 10mm downloaded for use by FBI lawyers and accountants, many of them female to-boot? I have always believed the .45 ACP is at least as good, if not better than, the .40 as a defensive cartridge regardless of "expert" opinion. Most recent "expert" FBI opinion is that the 9mm is better than either the .40 or the .45. So much for "expert" opinion!

Back to 10mm. It is a most excellent cartridge. It is both powerful and accurate. It remained in the background for decades but now the secret is out and it enjoys a very large and growing following. Ammo, yes ammo. There are many choices and they are loaded to a very wide range of velocities. I tested several factory loads. I posted this chart elsewhere but it deserves a place here as well. You won't see this kind of performance from any .40.

Remember, the test firearm, my pistol, has a 6" barrel.

Text Green Yellow Line Number
 
#23 ·
I started out with 10mm in the Smith & Wesson 610 with 4" barrel in 2004. Not being accustomed to N frame revolvers at the time it got traded off. Years since I sought out another 10mm. In January 2018 I purchased a Ruger SR 1911. It fit well in my stable of 1911's. Two months later an auction lot came up of two first year Kimber Custom II's. They came home and one is a 10mm. The 10mm's shoot fantastic. Far more recoil than any 1911 I've ever shot. The ejected cases go straight back between 15 and 20 feet. Both Sig Sauer and Fiocchi chronograph over the 1250 fps advertised velocity with a 180 grain bullet. Kimber on the left is the 10mm. One on the right is a 45.

Grass Tree Vehicle Shotgun
Gun Firearm Trigger Gun accessory Gun barrel
 
#26 ·
I've had S&W M&P and Ruger in 40cal. Shot a box or two out of each at targets. Had Colt Delta Elite and shot less. My nephew just got a Kimber 10mm this summer for deer pistol. We've shot it a good bit at steel plates and target. Good shooting pistol. I hit groundhog silo at 100yds more times than I missed. Benched it shot like a rifle. We have dies but are still burning up factory ammo. I don't like the 40 at all.

I have watched reinactments of Dixie shoot out and LA Bank Robbery. The Dixie shoot out was spur of moment. No thought was given to shoot out. No only under gunned but under prepared and they knew what kind of hardware bad guys had. LA was a case of under gun. Many cops were scoring hits but perps had body armor. A SWAT guy would have folded both bad guys with 2 shots from a 308.
Watching those shootouts is as sickning as WW2 footage of Sherman tanks being shot to pieces by German Panzers. They didn't have a chance.
 
#27 ·
A little clarification on the events of Miami 1986 seems due here, if I may.....this is from memory, so bear with me please.

Ben Grogan ran the FBI team that attempted to take down Platt and Matix via felony car-stop. The ensuing collision threw up a lot of dust, discombobulated several agents, and confusion reigned. Most of the FBI guys had 9mm's, which was the round eventually blamed for the "Failure" to kill the bad guys even though two "non-survivable" hits were scored on Michael Platt. The bigger problem was tactics, as Platt outmaneuvered the agents and killed Ben Grogan, who was nearly blind without the glasses he lost in the collision, Dove was killed after his gun was hit by a 223 slug and disabled, and Platt shot him to the ground, then blew his head off at close range. Ron Risner fired from across the street with little effect, and Mundo Mireles was nearly taken out by a 223 round that basically blew his forearm inside-out. Platt was the aggressor and used the stolen Mini-14 (full-auto) to take out seven agents. Few of the shotguns the FBI agents had ever came into play. It was the most thoroughly investigated shootout in history, surpassing the OK Corral mess, with many more tools used to explain how and why things went the way they did. (More info can be found here; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout )

As earlier stated, the 9mm pistols were blamed, as the Feds claimed they were outgunned. The 10mm was suggested as a replacement, and several years and millions of dollars were expended in the quest for the ultimate handgun and round. The Ten was picked, but the guns were large and heavy and kicked like hell, and the smaller statured/female agents didn't like them, and couldn't shoot them well enough to qualify with them. There were also problem with the guns themselves, especially the 1076, as I recall.

While all that was going on, other factions decided to experiment with a shorter version of the 10mm case, and it was quickly realized that a 40-caliber round the same length as the 9mm could be adapted to existing guns quickly, as the feed geometry didn't have to be altered much. The new .40S&W round was announced in early 1990, and guns were available a scant few months later, most notably Glock and S&W. Every pistol-maker on the planet scrambled to chamber the new wunderkind, and before another year had passed you could get the 40 Smith & Wesson (or 40 Short & Weak, depending on who you listened to) in just about any semi-auto ever made.

The Ten Millimeter was popularized by one Lt Col. John "Jeff" Cooper, whose input led to the design of the Bren Ten, a somewhat modified version of the CZ-75, a pistol that Cooper liked in spite of its chambering in 9mm. Cooper was not fond of the "Crunchentickers" as he called the DA Autos of the day, but in a strengthened gun he championed it. He also had some input into the design of the 10mm round, and claimed it had as much energy at 200 yards as his beloved 45ACP had at the muzzle. Upon reading that, back in the 80's, I marveled at the mind that could conceive it, the gun that could contain it, and the men who could shoot it "properly". I vowed to become one. :embarassed:

Fast forward to present day: The 40S&W, once the perfect "Compromise" caliber with good ballistics that split the difference between the mag capacity of the 9mm and the more effective ballistics of the 45ACP, is now on the downslide as police agencies continue to seek the perfect balance between training costs and effectiveness. Even the FBI, which once championed bigger calibers, has now decided the 9mm is "good enough", while other agencies have gone to the 10mm (rarely) and sometimes the 45ACP in guns that hold a lot of bullets. The 9mm, ballistically, has gotten better, and costs a lot less to train with. When money is tight, the first thing that police agencies cut is training (stupid, but still true!) and the 9mm is now finding a home in a lot of jurisdictions that eagerly glommed onto the 40S&W when it came out. Times change, yet administrative thinking never does.

The Ten Millimeter still has a following, some would give it Cult Status but it's become more than that.....hunters and outdoorsmen use and love it, but there is also a strong contingent of people who believe that if something is worth shooting, it's worth shooting it HARD, and the 10 does that. When penetration is needed, I can't think of a round that does it better. 200, even 220 grain bullets will push through an awful lot of anything when fired from a 5-6 inch barrel, and new 10mm models are being introduced regularly.

As for the 40, I chose it over the 9mm, because those are my only two choices for on-duty carry, and I would much rather have Better bullets than More bullets. If I ever have to shoot someone, on or off duty, I want them to give up the fight after one solid hit, rather than half a dozen. The 9mm might be better than it use to be, but the 40 and the 10 have ALWAYS been better at ending things faster.

And just to be clear, when I get off duty and take off my 40.........I put on a 45. :bandit:
 
#28 ·
I have a Ruger P944 ,just like the OP. I got it for cheap. It is used and it is a rugged tank. 180 grain bullets are super comfortable to shoot because I think the gun weighs 40 oz. ? 155 grain has some kick . Great gun . Mine was ex-leo like the one in the attached Ruger advertisement from the 1990's.
Good companion gun for a 40 carbine like the PC4
 

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#29 ·
OK, I have to ask - any opinions/experiences with the HiPoint 1095 10mm carbine? I have their 995 and 4095 carbines, and they're a hoot. Very reliable and boringly accurate. I can't help but think the 1095 would be even better. It'll likely be my next gun purchase.
 
#30 ·
No personal experience with the 1095 here, but every review I've seen has been positive, including the ones from folks who really wanted to hate on the gun just because of the name. But when the smoke cleared they grudgingly admitted they liked it. Were it not for the proprietary magazines, Hi-point would easily sell at least twice as many guns. I'm one of the folks who would happily buy one of it took Glock mags. :bandit:
 
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