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  1. #11
    Sidewinder
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    For self defense a HP or SP would be better than FMJ. Don't really see much sense in mixing them up in the magazine. If you needed something other than a HP or SP you could carry extra ammo and load them individually. And....let's face it, the chance of any of us getting into a fire fight, let alone with a lever gun, is slim and none.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by mac66 View Post
    For self defense a HP or SP would be better than FMJ. Don't really see much sense in mixing them up in the magazine. If you needed something other than a HP or SP you could carry extra ammo and load them individually. And....let's face it, the chance of any of us getting into a fire fight, let alone with a lever gun, is slim and none.
    That all presumes that your pistol feeds JHPs reliably, and that your magic HP bullet, if it IS fragile enough to expand (most won't if fired from a barrel shorter than 3 inches), still has adequate penetration to defeat a defensively positioned arm held across the sternum, do the sternum and retain enough energy to do major damage to the vitals. If you ever need to use your pistol it will not be against an enraged naked jello man.

    In the experience of my mentors (veteran UCs from alphabet soup outfits who all worked overseas and lived long enough to retire) most small-caliber JHPs fail in this respect. On their advice, I carry the Remington 102-grain Golden Saber Ultimate Defense for my JHP rounds. It gives 845 fps and does expand "some" from my Ruger LCP, being more destructive than hardball with good penetration and adequate, if not spectacular expansion. The same round gives 917 fps in my SIG P230 and at 893 fps in the Beretta M1934. Penetration is less, but adequate and expansion classic mushroom. My hardball is real Made In Italy Fiocchi same as was carried by guest carabinieri instructor when on UN peacekeeping missions, when their usual Beretta Model 93Rs were felt to be "too aggressive." It gives 985 fps from my 3.4" barrel Beretta M1934, over 1000 fps from the SIG 230, and 853 fps from the little 2.4" Ruger LCP. Very typical FMJRN performance with 180-degree "flip" occuring after 6" initial gelatin penetration, continuing base first and stopping at 14-16+"

    Both loads are utterly reliable and well proven. I won't carry a round which I have not shot at least 200 of through the pistol with no drips, runs or errors.
    Last edited by Outpost75; 12-20-2018 at 08:52 PM.
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  3. #13
    Gun Wizard
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    Hey, Outpost75

    I carried a Beretta 1934 for a long time way back. Several reasons but the most important was it never jammed, misfed or failed to extract and cycle. It also had the coolest field strip of all, (hit the muzzle with the heel of the hand)... I actually went through a couple, maybe three, not sure. They also had a choice of mags, with or without a finger rest thingy. Without was better for low profile, with better for shooting. If anyone sees one for sale, snap it up. Much underrated little pistols.

    Also, and dont quote me its from memory, WW2 vintage ones had roman numerals that denoted the date, but counting from Mussolini taking over the country. Also RE which I think meant Army. Again, memory only here so best check.
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  5. #14
    RHP
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    A: Hollow ponit
    B: Soft Point
    C: FMJ
    D: LRN
    E: None of the above

    I bet if you took a poll asking 100 convicted felons which one they would rather be shot with, all of them would answer E: None of the above
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  6. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by tranteruk View Post
    Hey, Outpost75

    I carried a Beretta 1934 for a long time way back. Several reasons but the most important was it never jammed, misfed or failed to extract and cycle. It also had the coolest field strip of all, (hit the muzzle with the heel of the hand)... I actually went through a couple, maybe three, not sure. They also had a choice of mags, with or without a finger rest thingy. Without was better for low profile, with better for shooting. If anyone sees one for sale, snap it up. Much underrated little pistols.

    Also, and dont quote me its from memory, WW2 vintage ones had roman numerals that denoted the date, but counting from Mussolini taking over the country. Also RE which I think meant Army. Again, memory only here so best check.
    Yes, a condensation of article by Ed Harris in The Fouling Shot, posted by permission:

    Tales from the Back Creek Diary

    “Le armi le carica il diavolo” (the Devil Loads the Guns!)

    Collected thoughts on the 1934 Beretta Pistol and .380 ACP Cartridge
    “…one of the sturdiest and most reliable auto pistols ever made...” - Roy Dunlap

    C.E. “Ed” Harris, Gerrardstown, WV

    ....The Beretta Army Model 1934 in 9mm Corto it is a true classic and one of the best of its type.

    I asked a retired Carabinieri NCO veteran of many UN peace missions, how they carried their Beretta pistols. All of them, he says, the old 1934 and the double action 92 were always carried with the magazine full and chamber empty. In Italy in particular, as well as in most of Europe, whether in the police or Army, the pistol is viewed as a badge of authority, not as a primary combat weapon. Guns are deemed “an evil necessity.” “Le armi le carica il diavolo is an old Italian proverb, which accurately describes this philosophy, it means, “The devil loads the guns.”

    This attitude dates back to the era of horse cavalry, in which the primary weapon was a lance or sabre. Pistols were considered a backup weapon, secured with lanyards to keep them from being lost. The grip safety of the US M1911 pistol was specified by a cavalry officer to prevent accidental discharge of a dropped pistol dangling on its lanyard while being jostled by a galloping horse! European butt-located magazine releases forced the user to positively grasp the magazine in order to withdraw it, reducing risk of the magazine being dropped and lost. Fast reloading was not felt important or necessary.

    Carrying an automatic pistol with its chamber loaded was then felt to be dangerous. Allied pistol instruction prior to WW2 was purely “academic,” formal bullseye firing. Modern combat pistol technique as pioneered by Fairbairn & Sykes was taught then only to commandoes and covert operators. Typical WW2 soldiers of both sides received only minimal pistol training and were “not to be trusted with a loaded pistol.” Allied aircrews often carried revolvers, because they simplified training, were easier to maintain and safer to carry.

    British Army and Home Guard instructions of 1940 stated that “automatics shall be carried with a loaded magazine inserted into the butt, with the chamber empty.” Indeed, U.S. Army WW2 instructions for military police, guards and escorts was to similarly carry their M1911 in “Condition 3.” “Cocked and locked” in “Condition 1” was intended only in combat zones when contact with the enemy was felt imminent.

    The best evaluation of the 1934 Beretta pistol I have found read in English was penned by none other than Roy F. Dunlap. Dunlap’s thorough description of the Beretta 1934, appears in Ordnance Went Up Front, (Stackpole, 194, (1998 Reprint available from The Firearm Classic Library):

    He explains that its thumb safety mounted well forward on the left side of the frame, requires a full 180-degree rotation, and so is less ergonomic than a slide-mounted, hammer-dropping safety, used on the Walther PP. The Beretta safety only blocks the sear, not the hammer, so when engaged on a loaded chamber, the pistol is not “drop safe.” The Beretta safety functions best as a slide lock and takedown lever only. “Condition 3” in which the pistol is carried with chamber empty and safety off, or optionally “Israeli Carry” with the hammer cocked over the empty chamber to ease cycling the slide to chamber a round, is the safest carry.

    Upon firing the last round, the magazine follower holds the slide open. Before removing the empty magazine to reload, retract the slide back a fraction of an inch to engage the safety, which then holds the slide open. After doing so, then actuate the butt release to withdraw the magazine. When done this manner, the safety holds the slide, so that you can insert a loaded magazine and then release the slide by disengaging the safety to chamber a round.

    The average military man cannot hit … anything with a pistol. As a rule the bigger the gun, the less he hits…smaller calibers are easier … to handle. A hit with a .380 beats a miss with a .45!.

    .“I like the Beretta, and regard it as, by far, the best standard sized auto loading pocket pistol in the world…(its) rugged simplicity keeps it …running when (sand) brings…(close tolerance) double-action Walthers and Mausers grinding to a halt.”

    “…The Italian Army Model 1934 9mm Corto, outnumbered all other (war trophy) pistols (in the ETO) combined… one of the sturdiest and most reliable auto pistols ever made... The only broken part I ever saw… was a hammer, in which the gun was dropped cocked and locked onto concrete. The service stocks have steel backing plates so if the composition panels are cracked or broken…parts are held securely, so that function of the gun is not affected in any way. The magazine holds seven cartridges. The gun is very well designed and made. I have never been able to cause a malfunction in one without actually bending the steel magazine lips with pliers!…

    “…Berettas…are simple to work on…having only 36 parts, none…frail or subject to easy breakage…although many GI’s needed a fixin’ job…because Standard Operating Procedure in the Italian Army, if capture was imminent, was to remove the thumb safety and drop it into the desert sand. GIs were always bringing me Berettas having ‘a hole in the middle’ and asking for me to make the part...So, I got pretty good at it.

    “The manual thumb safety holds the pistol together by locking the barrel into the frame; it also acts as a stop for and receives its tension from the recoil spring guide, acting as a slide lock to hold the pistol open for inspection or takedown…

    "The hammer may be manually cocked at any time and it is theoretically possible …to discharge accidentally with the safety on, in spite of the fact that it uses the short, inertia type firing pin requiring a full blow. Such an accident would be possible only by breaking away the sear notch in the hammer.

    "The depth of sear notch and angle of engagement make this unlikely… the disconnector is effective in preventing doubling as the trigger cannot move the sear until the slide is fully closed.

    “The Italians believe in safe trigger pulls, safe meaning heavy. But it is simple for a skilled gunsmith to remove the hammer and in a manner similar to the M1911 work up a creep-free 4-pound trigger retaining a completely safe depth of sear engagement…”

    The .380 Automatic Colt Pistol, aka 9mm Corto Cartridge, dates from 1908, being introduced first in the Colt Pocket Hammerless pistol. Before WW2 it was adopted by Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Netherlands, Italy, and Yugoslavia. The “.380” figure in the designation is derived from the case diameter, not the bullet. The .380 is a scale model of the .45 ACP and is NOT the same as a shortened 9mm Parabellum. The Soviet 9x18 Makarov IS derived from a shortened Parabellum case, loaded with a .363 diameter bullet, whereas the .380 is a true 9mm, with straight, rimless, untapered case.

    Ballistics of the .380 ACP compare almost exactly to the Colt 1851 Navy .36 caliber cap & ball revolver in terms of its bullet weight, velocity, energy and penetration. In its day the .36 cal. Navy established its reputation as a reliable man killer in the hands of Confederate guerillas John Mosby, and William Quantrill, and such Old West gunfighters as Wild Bill Hickok, the James and Younger gangs.

    So, the .380 is no pipsqueak load. European and Israeli police forces continued using it well into the early 1980s. Its US popularity has grown rapidly with the wide passage of “shall issue” permits for concealed carry. The .380 provides power similar to a .38 Special 2-inch snubby in compact auto pistols. Modern improvements in ammunition and compact carry pistols for personal defense make the .380 more popular than ever...

    In Europe, standard ballistics established by the CIP for the .380 ACP call for a 6.1 gram bullet at 290 m/s, giving 250 Joules of kinetic energy. CIP’s pressure limits are stated in bar, (bar times 14.504 = psi) with the machine loading limit (sample average) being 1350 bar (19,580psi). The Maximum individual pressure or X-bar+3Sigma, designated Pmax is 1553 bar (22,525psi). For comparison the SAAMI Maximum Product Average or MAP is 21,500 psia, using the same definition of XBar+3Sigma of the sample average. Under CIP, Firearm Proof Acceptance is 1755 bar (25,455 psi). These pressure limits are very similar to those used for the .45 ACP.

    Factory ballistics with 95-grain FMJ bullets are approximated with 2.7 grains of Bullseye, giving about 900 fps and 170 ft.-lbs. of energy. Current data from the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition, 2010, p. 246 lists:

    90-grain #356242, 0.98” OAL, 3.0 Bullseye, 900 fps, 16,000cup
    102-grain Lee #356-102-2R, 0.96” OAL, 2.9 Bullseye, 903 fps, 18,200cup
    120-grain #356242, 0.98” OAL, 2.1 Bullseye, 750 fps, 15,200 cup.

    My Beretta 1934 “short cycles” with light bullets... Lyman’s suggested loads wouldn’t cycle my Beretta. Casting Accurate 35-120H bullets of wheel weights, lubing with Lee Liquid Alox, sizing to .357” and loading to 0.95” overall cartridge length, the blunt, ogival flatnose profile hand feeds reliably from the Beretta magazine. Once I got up to 2.5 grains of Bullseye for 836 fps from the Beretta’s 3.4” barrel, the pistol ran like a pony trotting with a velocity standard deviation of 11 fps and an extreme spread of only 29 fps, over a ten-shot string. Fired cases showed no excessive pressure signs. Ejection was similar to Fiocchi 95-grain FMJs (985 fps) and recoil was similar. I ran another 100 rounds without any problems. The 120-grain cast loads stay on a business card at 7 yards from the LCP and shoot to the Beretta’s sights at 25 yards...

    Whether you prefer classic WW2-era pocket pistol, or a modern “pocket rocket” the .380 ACP is up to the task for discreet concealed carry and personal protection. The compact personal companion always with you beats leaving a more powerful and heavy gun where it is not accessible, because it is inconvenient. A .380 may not be your first choice, but it sure beats having no pistol at all. That’s why I have one, or two!

    Velocity of .380 ACP Factory and Heavy Cast Bullet Handloads
    in Beretta vs. Ruger LCP

    Ammunition Type________3.4” Beretta M1934____2.75” Ruger LCP

    Fiocchi 95-grain FMJRN_______984 fps, 25 Sd, 86ES_____853 fps, 34 Sd, 116 ES

    Winchester 95-grain FMJFN____891 fps, 17 Sd, 44ES_____804 fps, 18 Sd, 63 ES

    Remington 102-grain GSHP____893 fps, 27 Sd, 60ES_____845 fps, 44 Sd, 151 ES

    Accurate 36-120H, 2.5 Bullseye_ 836 fps, 11 Sd, 29 ES____768 fps, 29 Sd, 77ES

    Attachment 739321Attachment 739323 Attachment 739327Attachment 739329
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  7. #16
    Sidewinder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
    That all presumes that your pistol feeds JHPs reliably, and that your magic HP bullet, if it IS fragile enough to expand (most won't if fired from a barrel shorter than 3 inches), still has adequate penetration to defeat a defensively positioned arm held across the sternum, do the sternum and retain enough energy to do major damage to the vitals. If you ever need to use your pistol it will not be against an enraged naked jello man.



    .

    Why would you carry a pistol with a round that doesn't feed? Find a HP or SP that feeds and use it.

    Besides, this thread is about using FMJs, JHPs or SP in a lever gun not pistols.

  8. #17
    Marlin Marksman
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    Quote Originally Posted by mac66 View Post
    Why would you carry a pistol with a round that doesn't feed? Find a HP or SP that feeds and use it.

    Besides, this thread is about using FMJs, JHPs or SP in a lever gun not pistols.
    You would be surprised how many people by the lastest whiz-bang load touted in their latest gun rag without even shooting a whole box for function.

    Same goes for leverguns. I don't use JHPs in my leverguns on anything larger than deer because penetration often fails. Big meplat solid lead always works.
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  9. #18
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    I carry critical duty, according to the FBI it is the best of both worlds.
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  10. #19
    Tinhorn
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    It's always a trade off, sometimes you want penetration and sometimes you don't. It all depends on what your target is, what it's behind, or what's behind it. Or you just use hard cast lead flat points that are devestating.


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