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The AR Mess

7K views 48 replies 21 participants last post by  Cowboy23* 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
The current state of the AR sporting rifle market is a mess. There, I said it. On the one hand, it seems like a golden age, with prices having plummeted, and a proliferation of enticing, purpose built cartridges to fill every shooting niche. On the other hand, it’s a mess. I noticed the beginning of the trend years ago.

It’s been well over a decade now since AR platform rifles stood on their collective tails like a squadron of F-15s and lit afterburners for a vertical climb that is just now sputtering out. During the intervening years new manufacturers entered the market every month, and new, alternative cartridges were added to stoke the fire. But it seems everyone from rifle makers to cartridge designers/ammunition manufacturers was so intent on grabbing a slice of pie, that a lot of important development details were overlooked.

Back before the market went nuts, when AR-15s came in as many flavors as Ford Model Ts, they developed a reputation for being Lego sets. The formula for making a .223/5.56 rifle run properly was well understood, and it was a near certainty that parts from reputable makers would result in a reliable build (though plenty of home gunsmiths muffed it, regardless).

But even then, the AR-10 platform hinted at the troubles to come. Many .308 chambered SR-25 pattern rifles were not so great. Gen 1 DPMS rifles, for instance, were dismally unreliable, despite that company’s long standing reputation as a respectable AR-15 maker. On the other hand, Armalite--related to the original AR-10 developer by name only--managed to produce outstanding large format rifles.

A pattern emerged as new cartridges were developed for ARs. Oftentimes, the original developer(s) got it right in their offering, while copycats failed more often than they succeeded. The .300 Whisper/Blackout craze offers great examples. The 6.8 SPC offered suffering to the unsuspecting. Alexander Arms’ 6.5 Grendels ran flawlessly, and while the cartridge’s popularity increased after going SAAMI, it is now easy to find examples that are not reliable.

Lots of problems surfaced when the 6.5mm craze bled over into the AR-10 format. Cartridges like the .260 Rem and its erstwhile usurper, the 6.5 Creedmoor, offered enticing ballistics, and in a hurry to hop on the rapidly accelerating bandwagon, a number of makers trotted out rifles in these chamberings. Many were unworthy. The AR as Lego set philosophy was an epic fail where alternative calibers were concerned, and many unsuspecting consumers paid the price.

The SA 6.5s are an interesting case study. I was an early adopter of 6.5 cartridges, so I’ve been studying their ballistics--both internal and external--for over a decade. Thing is, you don’t have to be an internal ballistics expert to understand that a .260 or Creedmoor is quite different than a .308 Win. The 6.5s use slower burning powder, which carry a longer, higher pressure curve through the bore. It astounds me that many AR makers assumed a .308 gas/buffer system would work just as well on a 6.5mm. But that’s exactly what happened.

Complicating matters more, 6.5s, with their skinny bullets, do not work well on .308 feed ramps. The ramps cut into the barrel extension are designed to guide, and lift a .308 cal bullet, so that as it nears the breech, it is elevated to the chamber mouth, ideally missing the breech feed cone entirely, thus avoiding deformation.

However, 6.5 bullets are narrow enough to go through the “teeth” of the feed ramp and hit the breech. A good barrel maker understands this, and will widen/deepen the breech feed cone to insure reliable feeding. Plenty of barrel makers do not, and will cut a standard, .308 feed cone, which ensures that 6.5 bullet tips will be badly deformed, assuming the cartridge makes it into the chamber at all. Despite the popularity of 6.5s these days, a thorough search failed to turn up any AR-10 barrel extension with feed ramps cut specifically for 6.5mm cartridges. Amazing, no?

The AR mess doesn’t end there. Magazine manufacturers are strangely complacent, preferring to stick to the safely trodden paths of .223 and .308, ignoring a host of new entries even when one becomes popular. In my excitement over my first Grendel, I bought a stack of magazines early on, all of which were reliable. Good luck finding a reliable Grendel mag now. The .450 bushmaster is growing in popularity, but no mag exists that will reliably feed more than a few rounds. Despite enormous popularity, mags for the .300 Blk are still hit or miss. Winchester seems unconcerned that no mag exists for its new .350 Legend.

Point is, there’s a disconnect, which is odd, as altering magazine designs to fit a different cartridge usually involves little more than changing internal guide rail dimensions. I have altered Lancers to reliably stack and feed 12rds of Bushmaster, and Pmags to feed 20rds of .36 RPP. It ain’t rocket science.

One last note. The Army’s adoption of the M4 helped popularize the carbine length gas system, but unless you’re building a SBR, short gas systems are best avoided. Carbine gas systems are more finicky, cycle more violently, and put more heat into the action. They are also tougher on brass. If you’re getting into a .308, stick with a rifle length system, and if you’re going with a 6.5, I highly recommend going with a magnum length (rifle +2”) gas system. Longer gas systems offer benefits with any cartridge, and there is really no down side unless you must have a very high cyclic rate. Most civilians do not.

This is the golden age of the AR, no question. But buyer beware, they are not Lego sets. If you are thinking of getting into a new caliber, do your homework and get educated about its potential pitfalls. Then contact reputable manufacturers to quiz them. If you can’t get someone on the phone who is willing and able to answer your technical concerns, move on. Experience with the caliber and excellent customer service are both paramount. If you are going to piece the rifle together, then go with the barrel maker’s recommendations regarding gas blocks, BCGs and buffers.

Apart from that, go wild. Have fun. Be safe.
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#3 ·
Happy to hear it. Many will have experiences contrary to what I've written. The 6.8 was certainly not one of the more troublesome cartridges in the AR, though I saw some miscreants as a gunsmith.
 
#4 ·
I was in gun manufacture when the AR hit the ground running commercially. They did look to be all things to all people, a real lego set. Where did it go wrong? Too many firms trying to get a slice of the $-pie. Having offered every possible variation of sight, every possible variation of accessory from muzzle to stock with mint holders, with and without carry handles, calibre's were the only place left to go. 5.56 and the original Armalite's 7.62 were enough.

Dont get me wrong, make a good product and make money, nothing wrong with that. However, all those calibre's?
 
#7 ·
However, all those calibre's?
Yeah, the pros and cons of various calibers are in endless debate. I own ARs in several alternate calibers, some of which I feel are very worthwhile. Most are over hyped, often marketed as the do-all, be-all, end-all. This gets old. As it's been all along, every cartridge is a collection of compromises. They work well for some things but not others.

But there are some cartridges--not all new--that offer pretty outstanding flexibility. It's pretty easy to beat the .223 in that regard, which explains the mad race to offer alternatives in the AR-15. It's tougher to beat the .308 as an all-rounder, though as previously mentioned I'm a 6.5 fan. I lean toward the .260 rather than the repackaged Creedmoor variety.

Outside any controversy, however, I just like to play. Between Marlins and ARs I have at least a dozen non-standard chamberings, one of which (.36 RPP) crosses the aisle to run in both platforms. The latest addition is a .40 Super gas operated AR pistol, built at great cost in time and money, for myself, just because I liked the cartridge and relish a challenge.
 
#5 ·
I agree about the car I e gas systems. Unless you have an sbr it makes no sense. Agree about the magazines too. They are critical and many are not designed or made well. The gas buffer issue should not be complicated. Of course the powder type and charge changes with different chamberings but it should not be that difficult for a manufacturer to determine the correct port size for each chambering. Personally I am fine with a large port as you can simply put an adjustable gas block on and just run regular buffers.
 
#6 ·
Well said and especially true for any who bulid their own AR's from discrete components. I must add that the AR parts market has turned out quality parts and there are a lot of quality parts available for every kind of build imaginable. After having built ALL calibers on the Std AR platform I can say that it is buyer beware and do your homework for the build that you are planning to do. I have had good luck using the Mid-length gas system on some of my big bore builds. Like all mechanical assembly it pays to measure and inspect\test fit the parts before you do final assembly. On many of my big bore uppers I spent extra for an adjustable gas block so I can adjust the gas on hand loads. Don't buy the cheapest parts you can find but look for quality and value and always consider function and reliablility over unnecessary gimmicks. It's the attention to details that make the build successful. Don't use parts that are discovered to be marginal in fit and alignment. Check the gas hole size in the barrel using precision numbered drill bit set. Don't be afraid to tune your buffer springs for the caliber of the upper as most will use the same lower for multiple uppers. And check your head space unless you purchase a barrel with a matching headspaced bolt !
 
#10 ·
agreed with you on most everything. its is tricky now with so many AR builders out there trying to crank out stuff just to "get in the market"

and now, with the glut of aftermarket parts from a mob of vendors, there are some real shoddy parts out there so I have to say buyer beware on "discount" and rock bottom price components.

As far as alternate calibers. they all are easily tuned to run in a platform with a bit of careful tuning. With the variety of gas blocks, buffers and springs, there is absolutely NO reason people shouldn't get their AR's to run perfectly with the "modern" calibers.

Most amateurs or home builders don't even really know there are a variety of spring weights and buffer weights to choose from to tune, AND different gas port lengths from "pistol" to "rifle length" and all in between will have, sometimes, dramatic cycling differences depending on calibers.

and Ive become painfully aware that people don't have a clue, or understand the why there are different length gas systems.. they just get the barrel because it was on sale. Heck, i'm tired of people buying barrels that were originally for .223 before the manufacturer just rechambered it, and didn't bother to make proper feed ramps.

I saw that a LOT when 458 socoms and 450 bushmasters were the thing, and aftermarket MFG's just re-chambered, and left .223 feed ramps... that was a disaster for a short time, and pretty much a guarantee it was gonna be a jam-o-matic setup.

after the craze and the rush, i spent a TON of time repairing, tweaking and "fixing" people's AR's after they watched a youtube vid and decided to build one before the Hillary scare. 80% of the time, it was just matching the correct components in the gas system. simple things.. and I went thru a LOT of adjustable gas blocks. word got out that I was pretty good at "getting AR's to run right" so that kept me pretty busy for a while.

They are pretty much like Lego's for big kids, but you still gotta make sure all the pieces fit.

I currently have pretty much all of the "commercial caliber" common variants for AR's right now, except for the 224 Valk.. that round was useless to me..but I pretty much have all the rest from pistol and rifle in my collection. Not one of them gives me a problem and they all run like scalded monkeys. its all in the build and the builder understanding actually what parts, and why those parts are to be used in the correct combination.

Currently, i am working on a pistol length .243 AR10 (12"barrel) for a customer in TX..
Completely odd and strange choice, but that's what he wants for his specific application....
I am also building a clone of it for myself, just to have. and use as my test bed for learning, and proper function before sending his to him.
In the end, I guarantee that it will run flawless, once I get it properly tuned..
 
#12 ·
"The current state of the AR sporting rifle market is a mess."

HOGWASH! On the contrary this is the golden age of the AR. There are more choices, manufactures, calibers, parts then ever. The influx of new manufacturers has kept the market alive with everything from high end to budget entries. There is something for everyone often at discount prices. I also don't think comparing an AR10 to an AR15 is a fair comparison. Apples and oranges. You can argue all day long about the better or best caliber but the alternative caliber AR market is minuscule compared to the standard (223/556) market. That said, choice is always a good thing and more choices is more better.

Oh, and building an AR isn't rocket science. I've been in the game since the 1980s and have built at least a dozen since then. I've used top shelf components and bottom tier ones and there isn't much difference any more between them. Don't get me started on the carbine length vs. mid length vs. rifle length gas systems. I've built and used them all and there is very little operational difference between them for the vast majority of AR owners/recreational shooters. If a carbine works it works regardless of where the gas port is.
 
#14 ·
Funny you ask. Since none of the big boys seems to want the market, I'm working on a special cutting tool that will allow me to perform the internal modification quickly and precisely. Then RPP can offer the factory mags with just a modest markup for our trouble. They should be along soon--after I stock my pantry.
 
#33 ·
Living in NJ, with the gun laws that are here, and the limited opportunities for long rang shooting, I don't want an AR (yet!).
I expect to move out in a few years, so that might change.

If I can stop buying lever guns and handguns (and boats and model trains) long enough to save up some 'AR' money, I will probably get a low-end Ruger or M&P.
Then I fear the floodgates may open! I like to 'tinker', so once I learn more about these rifles, I expect that I will like building them.
 
#27 ·
Bryan, I don't have anything against the .300 Blk. I was intrigued by the .300 Whisper before the Blackout came to be. I own a .300 Blk with AAC barrel, which is a pretty good shooter. Like the the Whisper, I feel the Blackout is at its best as a suppressed round with heavy bullets--the primary design goal. For supersonic work, there are a number of AR-15 cartridges that are superior. My Blackout loads are all 240 SMKs at 1000fps. For everything else, I've got much nastier medicine.

I mentioned it because the .300 craze had some serious teething problems early on, compounded by a copycat transition phase from Whisper to Blackout before the latter became the standard.
 
#37 ·

But even then, the AR-10 platform hinted at the troubles to come. Many .308 chambered SR-25 pattern rifles were not so great. Gen 1 DPMS rifles, for instance, were dismally unreliable, despite that company’s long standing reputation as a respectable AR-15 maker.

I agree Adam--many of the first Gen DPMS AR-10 clones had their issues. I waited until 2017 to buy my DPMS Oracle LR-308 due to the bad press. I have been shooting it with various weight hunting bullets (150 gr to 185 gr) and have been very pleased with the accuracy and dependability of the rifle. I got a great deal on a budget AR-10 clone.
 
#43 ·
Here's the .40 Super AR pistol I mentioned earlier. Since the last tweak a few weeks ago it's been running like a champ. There were a number of challenges to overcome, but having enough gas wasn't one of them. The .40 Supe makes plenty of it. The Glock compatible lower is from Quarter Circle Ten, and fairly good quality, though rather tight in the mag well. Mags were one of the challenges, actually. My XD mags work perfectly with the .40, but the factory Glock mags sucked. The mag in the photo is from ETS, and works great.

The 10.5" barrel is nitrided CM, and wears a custom aluminum radiator shroud behind the RPP designed finned aluminum gas block. Capping the barrel is an aluminum brake. This barrel doesn't stay hot for long.

Most recent load tests were with 155 Gold Dots running at 1900fps, which mirrors performance of an 1894C (weighing 2lbs more and a foot longer).
Gun Firearm Rifle Trigger Assault rifle
 
#44 ·
In 2010, I bought the "Remington" R25, AR-10 .308. I had a Geissele 2-stage match trigger installed and had what was probably the ultimate AR-10. This rifle would shoot cloverleaf groups all day long with just about anything I fed it. I hunted with the cheap Remington 150gr PSP Core Lokt because it actually shot that the best. After a bout three years, I sold it off, as i was longing for the more traditional deer rifle style and man do I regret losing that one. The moon and the stars aligned the day that rifle was built.

I've owned two since, I bought both, used looking for that magic again, but it was never to be. Both rifles were marginal shooters, picky about what ammo they liked, and both has minor cosmetic factory flaws.

You pretty much have to spend about twice what I got that Remington for, to approach that level of performance. Since then, I pretty much don't have much use for Remington anything, and they weren't responsible for the good rifle I had with their name on it anyways.
 
#45 · (Edited)
You have described my DPMS Oracle LR-308, it isn't picky about what I feed it and the rifle took down an 8 pointer for me this year. Very accurate and dependable for a lower end AR-10 clone. Bought the rifle back in 2017 and wouldn't sell it for anything. Changed out the handguard recently so the barrel is now free floated but that is all I am going to do with this rifle. Its good as is.....
Gun Firearm Rifle Air gun Trigger
 
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#46 ·
When I happen onto a real shooter, I hold on to it even if I can't think of an immediate use. Good, off the shelf rifles don't come along every day.
 
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