Outer's Foul Out - Cop Out Plus and Lead Out Plus - Recipe!?!?
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Thread: Outer's Foul Out - Cop Out Plus and Lead Out Plus - Recipe!?!?



  1. #1
    Tinhorn
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    Outer's Foul Out - Cop Out Plus and Lead Out Plus - Recipe!?!?

    Everyone:

    I just cleaned a rifle using my Foul Out III. In the process, I opened up the last container of Cop Out Plus on my reloading bench. As standard practice, I went to order a replacement container, and to my dismay, I learned that it was discontinued. I was very disappointed, because nothing works as well as the Foul Out for getting a barrel shiny-clean! A quick search of the Internet revealed a recipe on several web pages, but Fr. Frog's web page seems to be the originator. Having an engineering degree, I have a basic understanding of chemistry, and I noticed there were some errors in the formulations, so I contacted Fr. Frog. He told me that the base solution levels were in the patent, so I looked up the patent. From the patent, I got the inventors' names, and actually found one of them via a consulting firm he runs (a very nice fellow). He told me that the formulations in the patent would be a good starting point, but they weren't the final formulation in the products. He looked for his notes on the actual formulations, but they were long gone (he did the R&D back in the 80s).

    That brings me to this post. I've contacted an analytical lab that I use at work, and they can analyze both the Cop Out Plus and the Lead Out Plus for me for about $500. I want to do it, but that's a lot of spare change just to get the recipe. I'm putting out this post on several web sites to see if anyone would like to contribute to getting the recipe with me. If I can find 19 other "investors," it'll only cost us $25 apiece to get the recipe. I'd like to then make it public, so we'd all be "giving back" to the shooting community. Absent enough "investors," I may just fund the analysis myself, and then post it with a note asking for donations to help cover the cost.

    If anyone is interested, please PM me or post on this thread.

    Thanks,
    Scott
    gunscrewguy likes this.

  2. #2
    Distinguished Master
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    I'm interested - and thanks for the post - but before we invest in this thing, as little as it is, I'm wondering if all the chemicals needed for the recipe are readily available to the general public? I'd hate to invest only to find-out that one of the chemicals was something that we can't get our hands on, or something that is on the terrorist watch list or something like that?

    I agree though, it was the bomb, (probably a poor choice of word), for cleaning bores when I used it some years ago.
    njcioffi likes this.
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  3. #3
    Tinhorn
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    Gallo:

    I've already found sources for the three main constituents - there are no restrictions on purchasing or possessing them. It's a little over $100 (shipping and haz-mat fees included) to order enough to make a gallon of each solution. That's enough to last me the rest of my shooting days...

    Regards,
    Scott

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  5. #4
    Tinhorn
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    Is there no other interest in this? I know Outer's quit making it due to lack of interest, but I figured there were enough satisfied users of the Foul Out system to fund the chemical analysis! I finally found the time to post this on a bunch of forums, so we'll see what happens.

    Thanks for reading this,
    Scott

  6. #5
    Tenderfoot
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    Hello,
    New here. Found forum while searching for foul out chemicals. I am interested for 25-50 bucks worth of lab analyzing.

  7. #6
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    In my home made version of foul out, all I used was standard ammonia, worked great, with either lead or copper!
    Trinidad Bill and njcioffi like this.

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  8. #7
    Tenderfoot
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    I just found this post. Has anything happened on this project? Jim

  9. #8
    Tinhorn
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    Jim1941:

    I didn't get much interest, so I never had it analyzed. Since then, I was fortunate to find enough of both solutions to last me a long time.

    Scott

  10. #9
    Tenderfoot
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    I guess it was the same problem that outers had! I was going to see of my gun club would have any interest in joining in the funding of the project, but if you are not interested any longer, i guess the idea is dead. Jim

  11. #10
    Tenderfoot
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    Outers Foul Out II recipe

    Some time back I purchased the Outers Foul Out II.
    Because of the difficulty locating the solutions & the high price of same, I went in search of the recipe & found it.
    Actually, the Foul-Out MSDS sheet lead me right to it.
    I purchased the materials needed & have made & used it myself.
    It works just as well as the store bought.
    However.. be aware this formula is for the Foul Out II not the 3.

    So without further ado... here it tiz..

    Recipes for Homemade
    Outers FoulOut Cleaning Solutions



    HOMEMADE
    Lead and Copper Electrolytes:
    (from the Outer's Foul-Out Patent)
    The formulation for the copper removing solution is: 3.62 grams/liter of Copper (II) Acetate and 38.5 grams/liter of Ammonium Acetate in distilled or deionized water. The ammonium acetate is there to aid in the solubilization of the removed and oxidized copper and the copper acetate is used with the battery driven systems that to maintain a constant potential between the barrel and the electrode.
    The lead out solution formulation is as follows: 38.5 grams/liter of Ammonium Acetate and 6.50 grams/liter of Lead (II) Acetate in distilled or deionized water.

    The Science Alliance

    1920 Treble Drive
    J-1
    Humble, TX. 77338
    (281) 540-3115
    www.sciencealliance.com

    Recipes

    Cop Out Solution

    in 500 ml DI water in 1 Quart of DI water
    27.9 grains of Copper (II) Acetate @ 27.8 cents 58.96 grains of Copper (II) Acetate
    297.0 grains of Ammonium Acetate @ 22.9 cents 627.68 grains of Ammonium Acetate
    Total chemical cost w/o DI water = $0.507 per bottle Total chemical cost w/o DI water = $1.07

    An aqueous electrolyte of 0.5 molar ammonium acetate has been found to be particularly well suited because ammonium acetate promotes the solubilization of copper ions. The addition of not more than 0.02 molar copper(II) acetate (3.62 grams/liter) is suitable and will not promote any adverse reaction with the ferrous metal of the bore.



    Lead Out Solution


    in 500-ml DI water in 1 Quart of DI water
    50.15 grains of Lead (II) Acetate @ 12.5 cents 105.98 grains of Lead (II) Acetate
    297.0 grains of Ammonium Acetate @ 27.8 cents 627.68 grains of Ammonium Acetate
    Total chemical cost w/o DI water = $0.403 per bottle Total chemical cost w/o DI water = $0.85

    An aqueous electrochemical cleaning solution consisting of 0.5 moles/liter (38.5 grams/liter) ammonium acetate and 0.02 moles/liter (6.5 grams/liter) lead(II) acetate. Since metallic lead is by far the predominant constitutent of lead fouling deposited in the bore, the minor amounts of alloying metals such as antimony and tin, as well as other usual non-metallic fouling deposits, if not oxidized themselves, simply loosen or fall off as the layer of lead fouling is removed.

    Purchased 2/26/01 @ $157.49 less shipping

    Ammonium Acetate 10 Kilo Grams @ $0.011897 per Gram or 154320 grains $0.0007709 per grain
    Copper Acetate 100 Grams @ $0.1542 per Gram or 1543.2 grains $0.0099922 per grain
    Lead Acetate 500 Grams @ $0.0462 per Gram or 7716 grains $0.0024948 per grain

    Will make 55 ea. 500 ml Cop Out base solution
    Will make 153 ea. 500 ml Lead Out base solution
    will make 519 ea. 500 ml Ammonium Acetate base solution
    Conversion

    500 ml = 16.9 oz

    Grams x 15.432 = grains
    Liters x 1.0567 = Quarts
    Liters x 33.81402 = Ounces


    Copper or copper alloy fouling, the latter occurring primarily through the use of so-called jacketed bullets, is removed in a manner similar to lead. Thus, an aqueous electrolyte of 0.5 molar ammonium acetate has been found to be particularly well suited because ammonium acetate promotes the solubilization of copper ions. If a potentiostat is not used, the aqueous electrolyte is preferentially doped with copper ions supplied by dissolving therein a suitable copper salt, such as copper(II) acetate. However, because copper ions in solution react spontaneously with iron in a direct replacement reaction, it has been found that only very low concentrations of copper ions can be tolerated. The addition of not more than 0.02 molar copper(II) acetate (3.62 grams/liter) is suitable and will not promote any adverse reaction with the ferrous metal of the bore. The acetate salt of copper also appears to have the beneficial effect of lowering the spontaneous reactivity of copper with iron. Similarly as in the case of lead alloy fouling, the alloying metals typically used with copper, such as zinc, are either dissolved and codeposited on the auxiliary electrode with the copper or loosened and fall into the aqueous electrolyte.

    To electrochemically remove lead fouling, an aqueous solution of 0.5 molar ammonium acetate (38.5 grams/liter) is a preferred electrolyte. Ammonium acetate has no direct chemical or electrolytic effect on steel, but provides the electrolytic conductivity necessary for the electrochemical oxidation of the metallic fouling, and acts to enhance the dissolution of the oxidized lead. If a potentiostat is not used, the electrolyte is further preferentially doped with lead ions to establish in the electrolytic solution an equilibrium electrolytic condition which promotes uniform and continuous deposition of lead on the auxiliary electrode. Doping with lead ions also eliminates the need to monitor and adjust the potential and to maintain the lead ion concentration in the electrolyte. Most conveniently, the electrolytic solution may be doped with approximately 0.02 molar lead(II) acetate (6.50 grams/liter) which is compatible with the base electrolyte and innocuous to the steel bore. It should be noted that an aqueous solution of lead acetate alone may also be effectively used. However, as previously mentioned, ammonium acetate in the electrolyte enhances the dissolution of the electrochemically oxidized lead fouling. In addition, lead acetate is not very soluble in water, but is substantially more soluble in aqueous ammonium acetate.

    Since metallic lead is by far the predominant constituent of lead fouling deposited in the bore, the minor amounts of alloying metals such as antimony and tin, as well as other usual non-metallic fouling deposits, if not oxidized themselves, simply loosen or fall off as the layer of lead fouling is removed. To the extent that these minor components of the fouling layer are not actually dissolved in the electrolyte, they are conveniently swept away with the electrolyte when the bore is emptied or may be swabbed from the bore in the conventional manner after the electrolyte is removed.


    The method disclosed herein is effectively operated at very low d-c potential. Thus, potentials in the range of 0.15 to 0.30 volts have been found to be adequate and it is believed that, for all usual metal fouling layers, a potential in excess of 2 volts would not be needed. In all cases, the current density is effectively controlled by the amount of metal fouling on the bore surface and remains at a low level. The practice of the method, therefore, does not expose the user to any electrical hazard. Furthermore, the method may be carried out at room temperature, thereby obviating the potential hazard of handling high temperature liquids. The electrolytes do not evolve toxic vapors and can, therefore, be safely used indoors with normal ventilation.


    Enjoy!


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