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Thread: 10mm /.40 S&W



  1. #21
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    I'm a 1911, 45 ACP user. I've tried Glocks and just never liked the feel. That's purely subjective but isn't that what it's all about?

    I wanted something MORE for the woods. My choice was a 10mm long slide from Kimber. The recoil and time to return to target are too much for my liking when compared to a 1911 in .45. However, those are not detrimental to woods carry, hunting, or bear defense. For those purposes the 10mm cartridge shines. So, while I do not recommend a 10mm for duty or concealed carry, it is THE auto cartridge for the outdoors.

    The .40 S&W never appealed to me. Why would I want a weakened version of the 10mm downloaded for use by FBI lawyers and accountants, many of them female to-boot? I have always believed the .45 ACP is at least as good, if not better than, the .40 as a defensive cartridge regardless of "expert" opinion. Most recent "expert" FBI opinion is that the 9mm is better than either the .40 or the .45. So much for "expert" opinion!

    Back to 10mm. It is a most excellent cartridge. It is both powerful and accurate. It remained in the background for decades but now the secret is out and it enjoys a very large and growing following. Ammo, yes ammo. There are many choices and they are loaded to a very wide range of velocities. I tested several factory loads. I posted this chart elsewhere but it deserves a place here as well. You won't see this kind of performance from any .40.

    Remember, the test firearm, my pistol, has a 6" barrel.

    10mmFactoryLoads.jpg
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1956CJ5 View Post
    Wasn't the 10mm first, and then the .40 S&W came later? Or am I mistaken?

    Seems I read the 10mm was developed for the FBI, who then decided it was too powerful, so the .40S&W came about to tone it down some.....
    Agents Dove and Grogan were killed in a serious shootout with some very skilled and well armed bad guys (Miami 1986). It was an engagement much examined by agencies all over the place after, including by me. Correct me if mistaken, its been a long time. It was a rolling stop of two armed bank robbers. I am pretty sure they had Min14s and handguns and used them to effect, lots of fire and movement. The FBI agents were outgunned and outclassed. Without going into the detail, and I remember quite a lot, the issue for the FBI was ineffective calibre's, especially 9mmP. The bad guys took hits and one in particular would surely die, but not before killing two agents. Hence they went looking for more effective calibre's.

    If you google it I am sure you can read up on it, many lessons were learned. From the agent who removed his handgun and placed it on the car seat beside him, only to spend the entire engagement looking for it when it slipped away to the agent killed when he lost his glasses, and couldn't see the guy shooting at him. They had shotguns I think but no rifles. Obviously a long time ago, but the search for more effective calibre's and weapons followed.

    I still have the after incident report somewhere. It actually makes sad reading. Pretty sure they made a movie about it, never saw it though.
    Last edited by tranteruk; 12-02-2019 at 03:36 PM.
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  3. #23
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    I started out with 10mm in the Smith & Wesson 610 with 4" barrel in 2004. Not being accustomed to N frame revolvers at the time it got traded off. Years since I sought out another 10mm. In January 2018 I purchased a Ruger SR 1911. It fit well in my stable of 1911's. Two months later an auction lot came up of two first year Kimber Custom II's. They came home and one is a 10mm. The 10mm's shoot fantastic. Far more recoil than any 1911 I've ever shot. The ejected cases go straight back between 15 and 20 feet. Both Sig Sauer and Fiocchi chronograph over the 1250 fps advertised velocity with a 180 grain bullet. Kimber on the left is the 10mm. One on the right is a 45.

    20191120_114020.jpg 20180506_151511.jpg
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  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by tranteruk View Post
    Agents Dove and Grogan were killed in a serious shootout with some very skilled and well armed bad guys (Miami 1986). It was an engagement much examined by agencies all over the place after, including by me. Correct me if mistaken, its been a long time. It was a rolling stop of two armed bank robbers. I am pretty sure they had Min14s and handguns and used them to effect, lots of fire and movement. The FBI agents were outgunned and outclassed. Without going into the detail, and I remember quite a lot, the issue for the FBI was ineffective calibre's, especially 9mmP. The bad guys took hits and one in particular would surely die, but not before killing two agents. Hence they went looking for more effective calibre's.

    If you google it I am sure you can read up on it, many lessons were learned. From the agent who removed his handgun and placed it on the car seat beside him, only to spend the entire engagement looking for it when it slipped away to the agent killed when he lost his glasses, and couldn't see the guy shooting at him. They had shotguns I think but no rifles. Obviously a long time ago, but the search for more effective calibre's and weapons followed.

    I still have the after incident report somewhere. It actually makes sad reading. Pretty sure they made a movie about it, never saw it though.
    A number of the feebs were shooting 38 wheel guns. one of the bad guys took a 38 in his arm pit, which traveled straight to his heart. it proved to be fatal, but not for a minute or two in which time he was able to kill another agent or 3.

    when i was a cadet in the houston police academy (1991, so miami was still pretty fresh), we studied that shooting in excruciating detail. if there was any way to screw up a particular aspect of that felony traffic stop, the feebs figured out a way to do it. it was (and still is) THE text book on how NOT to do things.
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  6. #25
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  7. #26
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    I've had S&W M&P and Ruger in 40cal. Shot a box or two out of each at targets. Had Colt Delta Elite and shot less. My nephew just got a Kimber 10mm this summer for deer pistol. We've shot it a good bit at steel plates and target. Good shooting pistol. I hit groundhog silo at 100yds more times than I missed. Benched it shot like a rifle. We have dies but are still burning up factory ammo. I don't like the 40 at all.

    I have watched reinactments of Dixie shoot out and LA Bank Robbery. The Dixie shoot out was spur of moment. No thought was given to shoot out. No only under gunned but under prepared and they knew what kind of hardware bad guys had. LA was a case of under gun. Many cops were scoring hits but perps had body armor. A SWAT guy would have folded both bad guys with 2 shots from a 308.
    Watching those shootouts is as sickning as WW2 footage of Sherman tanks being shot to pieces by German Panzers. They didn't have a chance.
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  8. #27
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    A little clarification on the events of Miami 1986 seems due here, if I may.....this is from memory, so bear with me please.

    Ben Grogan ran the FBI team that attempted to take down Platt and Matix via felony car-stop. The ensuing collision threw up a lot of dust, discombobulated several agents, and confusion reigned. Most of the FBI guys had 9mm's, which was the round eventually blamed for the "Failure" to kill the bad guys even though two "non-survivable" hits were scored on Michael Platt. The bigger problem was tactics, as Platt outmaneuvered the agents and killed Ben Grogan, who was nearly blind without the glasses he lost in the collision, Dove was killed after his gun was hit by a 223 slug and disabled, and Platt shot him to the ground, then blew his head off at close range. Ron Risner fired from across the street with little effect, and Mundo Mireles was nearly taken out by a 223 round that basically blew his forearm inside-out. Platt was the aggressor and used the stolen Mini-14 (full-auto) to take out seven agents. Few of the shotguns the FBI agents had ever came into play. It was the most thoroughly investigated shootout in history, surpassing the OK Corral mess, with many more tools used to explain how and why things went the way they did. (More info can be found here; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout )

    As earlier stated, the 9mm pistols were blamed, as the Feds claimed they were outgunned. The 10mm was suggested as a replacement, and several years and millions of dollars were expended in the quest for the ultimate handgun and round. The Ten was picked, but the guns were large and heavy and kicked like hell, and the smaller statured/female agents didn't like them, and couldn't shoot them well enough to qualify with them. There were also problem with the guns themselves, especially the 1076, as I recall.

    While all that was going on, other factions decided to experiment with a shorter version of the 10mm case, and it was quickly realized that a 40-caliber round the same length as the 9mm could be adapted to existing guns quickly, as the feed geometry didn't have to be altered much. The new .40S&W round was announced in early 1990, and guns were available a scant few months later, most notably Glock and S&W. Every pistol-maker on the planet scrambled to chamber the new wunderkind, and before another year had passed you could get the 40 Smith & Wesson (or 40 Short & Weak, depending on who you listened to) in just about any semi-auto ever made.

    The Ten Millimeter was popularized by one Lt Col. John "Jeff" Cooper, whose input led to the design of the Bren Ten, a somewhat modified version of the CZ-75, a pistol that Cooper liked in spite of its chambering in 9mm. Cooper was not fond of the "Crunchentickers" as he called the DA Autos of the day, but in a strengthened gun he championed it. He also had some input into the design of the 10mm round, and claimed it had as much energy at 200 yards as his beloved 45ACP had at the muzzle. Upon reading that, back in the 80's, I marveled at the mind that could conceive it, the gun that could contain it, and the men who could shoot it "properly". I vowed to become one.

    Fast forward to present day: The 40S&W, once the perfect "Compromise" caliber with good ballistics that split the difference between the mag capacity of the 9mm and the more effective ballistics of the 45ACP, is now on the downslide as police agencies continue to seek the perfect balance between training costs and effectiveness. Even the FBI, which once championed bigger calibers, has now decided the 9mm is "good enough", while other agencies have gone to the 10mm (rarely) and sometimes the 45ACP in guns that hold a lot of bullets. The 9mm, ballistically, has gotten better, and costs a lot less to train with. When money is tight, the first thing that police agencies cut is training (stupid, but still true!) and the 9mm is now finding a home in a lot of jurisdictions that eagerly glommed onto the 40S&W when it came out. Times change, yet administrative thinking never does.

    The Ten Millimeter still has a following, some would give it Cult Status but it's become more than that.....hunters and outdoorsmen use and love it, but there is also a strong contingent of people who believe that if something is worth shooting, it's worth shooting it HARD, and the 10 does that. When penetration is needed, I can't think of a round that does it better. 200, even 220 grain bullets will push through an awful lot of anything when fired from a 5-6 inch barrel, and new 10mm models are being introduced regularly.

    As for the 40, I chose it over the 9mm, because those are my only two choices for on-duty carry, and I would much rather have Better bullets than More bullets. If I ever have to shoot someone, on or off duty, I want them to give up the fight after one solid hit, rather than half a dozen. The 9mm might be better than it use to be, but the 40 and the 10 have ALWAYS been better at ending things faster.

    And just to be clear, when I get off duty and take off my 40.........I put on a 45.
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