Need Help with "London" Antique Muzzleloader Shotgun....?? Now with PICS....
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  1. #1
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    Cool Need Help with "London" Antique Muzzleloader Shotgun....?? Now with PICS....

    I have an old percussion muzzleloader SxS shotgun, I believe it to be a 12ga. The only markings I have found is "London" on top of bbl"s. It's fairly ornate with engraving and of course has double hammers/triggers...
    It's a very nice old gun and I would like to know more about it.
    I will get some pics up today and see if we can come up with something.

    Thanks in advance.
    BloodGroove4570

    PICS as Promised....


























    Last edited by BloodGroove4570; 06-28-2014 at 12:21 PM.
    Ray


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    More Pic's .....
















    Maybe these will help...?

    Thank You!
    Ray
    Last edited by BloodGroove4570; 06-28-2014 at 01:55 PM.
    Ray


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    Send it on over, I'll "help" ya with it! ROFL.

    Look's like a fine old double!

    Typical Proof Marks of Various Countries Look's like the ELG is a belgian proof code from what I found here. Don't know about the other mark's.


    Could be coincidence as well. A search of Proof mark's or shotgun code's could provide alot of searching fun.
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    Sure looks like a percussion 12 gauge, maybe mid 19th Century. Probably Civil War era - some of those shotguns, at least they look like that one, came over as part of an arms supply shipment from England to the South. It almost looks like a Richards to me but the bird dog on top and all the oak leaf engraving makes me think it is a Hunter. William Moore made some like that but I can't tell from any of those shots ... need a side shot of the trigger guard, triggers and the percussion assembly if possible.

    No ramrod?

    Any other markings anywhere, even if very faint?

    I'd particularly need to see a side shot view of the trigger assembly including any markings in that area.

    That shotgun appears to still be shootable.
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  6. #5
    RGR
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    I would agree with Pat, Belgian made like millions of guns were in those days, and "London" was stamped on it to make novices think it was English made. If it was truly made in london, ya can be your left cojone, it would give the full name.

    With all the engraving and a bit of gold inlay, it wasnt a cheap Belgian gun like many were. But I am about 99 percent sure its not English. It was common to take a known name, and simply spell it a letter or two off. Smolt for example I have seen. Rigaby maybe. It probably took as long in those days, to take a trade mark issue to court, as it does today. Except of course with the Redskins....

    They appear to be damascus tubes, and there was the misnomer of "london steel" which meant non damas tubes. So again, a novice could take that stamp, and run which ever way they wished in their mind, London production, or "london steel". Both of which are bogus claims with this gun.

    Studying the English gun trade, one discovers a lot of chicanery, for lack of a better word. Arguments about who made whose tubes, etc abound. Often the founders of various companies, would get mad over some thing with their partners, leave and set up shop down the street a couple of blocks, which does not help chasing provenance this many decades later.

    Its a bit rare to see the Belgian guns in the higher grades. It has not seen much use, every thing appears original.
    Last edited by RGR; 06-28-2014 at 01:41 PM.
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    Thanks guys for the input so far... I don't know much about it other than its been around (In my family) for as long as I've been around here 43yrs.
    My mom had an antique appraiser here about 6-8yrs ago and when he was leaving I showed it to him. He did a quik look and said he'd probly give me $1000 for it.? He was in a hurry so I couldn't get more info out of him...

    Thanks
    Ray


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    More Pics added above!

    Only marks I see on bottom of bbl's are:

    32

    R

    A ,,,with what appears to be a crown above the A.

    JJD

    In that circle is E above LG with a shape below it, sorta looks like another CROWN, or ?
    Ray


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    No clue really, but did find one that looks a lot like it, and some proof mark info...

    Belgian Percussion Cap Double Barrel Shotgun

    http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html
    Belgium
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGR View Post
    I would agree with Pat, Belgian made like millions of guns were in those days, and "London" was stamped on it to make novices think it was English made. If it was truly made in london, ya can be your left cojone, it would give the full name.

    With all the engraving and a bit of gold inlay, it wasnt a cheap Belgian gun like many were. But I am about 99 percent sure its not English. It was common to take a known name, and simply spell it a letter or two off. Smolt for example I have seen. Rigaby maybe. It probably took as long in those days, to take a trade mark issue to court, as it does today. Except of course with the Redskins....

    They appear to be damascus tubes, and there was the misnomer of "london steel" which meant non damas tubes. So again, a novice could take that stamp, and run which ever way they wished in their mind, London production, or "london steel". Both of which are bogus claims with this gun.

    Studying the English gun trade, one discovers a lot of chicanery, for lack of a better word. Arguments about who made whose tubes, etc abound. Often the founders of various companies, would get mad over some thing with their partners, leave and set up shop down the street a couple of blocks, which does not help chasing provenance this many decades later.

    Its a bit rare to see the Belgian guns in the higher grades. It has not seen much use, every thing appears original.
    BG4570,

    I agree here with RGR. Several years back I tried to research a similar shotgun. After some weeks of off and on digging I found myself with no real definative answer. The LG proofmarks I also believe to be Belgian. I kinda hesitate to say this, but if you think you can get the side plates off and back on without a problem, you might find some more marks on the back side of them. Good Luck..

    Smoke Ratchet

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    That appears to be a high quality Belgium gun, at least the barrels are Belgium proved. And that is not bad news. The Belgians used a better solder on their barrels and they seldom separated like the English. In trying to trace one of my ML doubles a person that is very knowledgeable told me that some guns were shipped to America unfinished and unassembled. The gunsmith would put them together, finish them and maybe do some engraving and add his name on the lockplates. It also looks like the fittings are "German Silver", brass with a high content of nickle.
    A true London gun would have the makers name engraved on the lockplates, the quality of the locks would exceed most of what is produced even today and the engraving would be what you expect to see on a Purdy. While VERY nice the engraving is nowhere near as nice as what I have seen on a London Gun.
    I would place it pre-civil war as most later guns had back action locks. The wood looks to be in very good condition along with everything else. $1000 may not be out of line.
    Please believe me I am not being negative, that is a very nice shotgun.

    An example of a London gun, http://www.sitemason.com/page/fvwTPq
    Another about the same time frame as yours Lewis Drake and Associates | Shotguns, Rifles, Furniture, Shooting Accessories, Leather Goods

    BTW Please run a ramrod down each barrel and check for a load. A brass tip should clink when it hits bottom. Also pinch the rod or use a marker at the muzzle and lay it down on the barrels. The jag should be 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch from the nipples. PM me if not. NEVER NEVER SHOOT OUT A LOADED ML WITH AN UNKNOWN CHARGE It could be charged with smokeless.
    Last edited by Steve_In; 06-29-2014 at 07:15 PM.
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