Paging 35 REM and other Reloading Gurus
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  1. #1
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    Paging 35 REM and other Reloading Gurus

    Two reloading Q's.

    I just started reloading for .35 Rem. usually factory Remington 200gr shoots well inside 1"at 50 yrds. I usually sight in a little high at 50 also most plniking is done at this range. Any way working up my loads I used Lee dippers started low and ended up just under current Hodgdon max. Not one load of 4 differnt ones came close to the factory accuracy. The loads I was using today were put together with a measure right at max Hodgdon load data.

    Today with a peep sight installed instead of the scope all I could do was about 1 1/2 - 2". Side note last range session using the scope wasn't much better but I wasn't shooting my best that day. I noticed a trend that the heavier loads shot better and today's loads were slightly heavier that last time.

    So my Q's are these in your experiences where in the load range do you get your best accuracy in .35 rem. under book max or a little over. I do not have a chrono but am not scared to go a little over --with out more equipment I doubt I would go 2 full grains-- I am using Remington brass, Remington CL 200 gr and H4895 right now at 38.5gr.

    My other Q is about seating depth. I have been seating to the upper or nose end of the canelure. Is it better to run the bullet out as far as possible?

    Other particulars are these I full length resize mostly just to where the dies kiss the shoulder. Also I use Lee dies and use the factory crimp die.

    Not a super big deal for hunting season as groups are well inside of needed accuracy but it is irratating to shoot 2" when you know the gun and components are capable of much better. Basically I'm shooting at 50 yds a little bigger group than factory does at 100. I understand some of this can be in the isghting system.

  2. #2
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    Paging 35 REM and other Reloading Gurus

    It is also irritating to spell and type so horribly. :roll:

  3. #3
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    Paging 35 REM and other Reloading Gurus

    Don't feel like the lone ranger, the Rem 200 grain Core-lokt factory load is noticeably more accurate in my 336A than any of my reloads so far. AA2520 under the 200 grain Core-lokt is closest.
    attack always attack

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  5. #4
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    Paging 35 REM and other Reloading Gurus

    If you saw a graph of how barrel band carbines shoot as the powder charge is raised or lowered, you would note that there are ranges where the gun shoots better, then, as velocity is raised or lowered, groups open up. This has to do with barrel vibration patterns, aggravated by the fact that the barrel has the damn band and tube to screw things up.

    I'd suggest:

    Casefilling charges to minimize velocity variations. Wide variations in velocity mean the bullet exits at a peak, the middle, or the trough of the vibration pattern. Picture the barrel oscillating as the bullet leave the muzzle. You want the bullet to exit the barrel at the same point of vibration every time, if possible. Barrel heating screws things up eventually, but when the barrel is relatively cool good accuracy should be possible. Have you tried 37.5 IMR 3031 with the 200 Remington, or maybe 39.0 H335? Those shoot very well for me.

    Note though, that if velocity variations are minimal, but the bullet leaves the barrel at a point where the vibrations are maximimum (not a peak or trough, where the barrel is motionless for a few milliseconds, but rather a transition between the two) accuracy may still be poor even though velocities are consistent. So, you need to combine the two, if possible. Use the powders that give minimal velocity variation with compressed or very close to compressed charges. Vary the charge one way or another to find the "sweet spot".

    Remember the BOSS that Winchester used to put on its Model 70's? It was just an attempt to find the right vibration pattern by moving a threaded piece of metal on the muzzle. You could tune the rifle to a particular handload. Here, absent the BOSS, you have to tune the handload to the rifle.

    A few thousandths extra jump to the rifling may not seem to matter much in the scheme of things, but it could have an influence on just when the bullet exits the muzzle. If you don't know how long your throat is, it might be a good idea to find out. With Marlin throats being as they are, you probably can't seat the bullet out very far without hitting the rifling, but you might as well find out. If your neck tension is marginal, you might have trouble keeping the bullet seated to the bottom of the cannelure in the tube magazine, even with a heavy crimp. The bullet may slide into the case under heavy spring pressure until the crimp hits the top of the cannelure and prevents it from receding further into the case. Only way to know for sure is to try it.

    I would try using IMR 3031 at factory load speed to start (around 35-36 grains) and work up to 37.5 grains in half grain increments if H4895 isn't working for you. I can usually get pretty good consistency with a dipper or measure, but you might want to check your technique to be sure your charges are consistent, which has an effect on velocity variation, which in turn could have an effect on accuracy. As for H4895, I've listed charges of two grains over Hodgdon max (40.5) in one of my other posts as producing 2200 fps. It may be that putting the throttle in a bit higher notch will find the right vibration pattern for your gun and bullet combination. The load is certainly casefilling at this weight, actually somewhat compressed. It's worth a try, and you'll certainly smack the hell out of the deer with it.


    As for velocities:

    220 Speer, near to full throttle (2050-2200 fps), but then it is typical for this bullet to be used with compressed charges with a lot of powders. Velocity variations are very low. Best accuracy in my guns.

    200 RN's, around 2100 fps, most powders. My rifles, anyway. Also assuming the powder fills or nearly fills the case at these velocities.

    180's, full throttle, 2300+ fps.

    In order of accuracy, my gun likes
    1) 220's
    2) 180's, both Speer
    3) 200 RN's, but Winchester factory ammo has given some fine groups.

    I am certain H4895 would give you very good groups with the 220 Speer, and maybe a little fiddling around will give you good results with the 200 RN's. If the 200's refuse to shoot as well as you'd like with H4895, well, there are a whole lot of other powders out there for the .35. Half the fun is finding out what works the best.

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    Paging 35 REM and other Reloading Gurus

    I have found differences between bullet weights, brand of bullet, different powders, and different rifles.
    I use the Rem CL 200gr bullets and use the Win 748 powder, 37.5gr.
    My better days with this load bring me 1.25" groups at 100 yards in one of my 336s.
    My suggestion is to try different powders and brands of bullets in your favorite weight until you find what your rifle likes best.
    It may just be the factory fodder.
    Ranger
    ave you hugged your rifles today ?

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    Paging 35 REM and other Reloading Gurus

    You said that you are using the Lee dippers. Do you weigh every load? If not you should be. I have used the dippers for years, but I weigh every single load. You have to! the dippers will only get you close, you need to use a scale and powder trickler to get your load. There can be about a 5 grain difference in each dip of powder with the scoops. That could be where much of your problem is. With hand loading the secret lies in being consistant and accurate with what you do. With out a scale and weighing the charges the dippers are neither.
    IN MEMORY OF PFC JEFFREY ALAN AVERY, 571st MP CO, KILLED IN ACTION 23 APR 07, AGE 19, MUQUDADIYAH, IRAQ.

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    Paging 35 REM and other Reloading Gurus

    I used the dippers to get close on my loads. I don't have the dipper numbers handy but were like 2.2, 2.5, 2.8 the last one being very close to Hodgdons max. I was very careful with my techique but understand what your are saying about the dippers. What I did was load 5 at each charge weight to see what gave the best acuracy. I was having a poor day with all my shooting that day. Anyway the load closest to 38.5 did the best.

    When I loaded up the trend was heavier = tighter group.

    When I load more than a few rounds I use a Lee perfect powder measure. Dial it in with a scale drop 10 charges then recheck. Adjust if needed drop 10 more and weigh the 11th. If that checks out start loading again paying atention to how I work the measure. trying to be consistent in that as well.

  9. #8
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    Paging 35 REM and other Reloading Gurus

    Bman,
    Did you weigh each charge that you dipped?
    IN MEMORY OF PFC JEFFREY ALAN AVERY, 571st MP CO, KILLED IN ACTION 23 APR 07, AGE 19, MUQUDADIYAH, IRAQ.

  10. #9
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    Paging 35 REM and other Reloading Gurus

    The dippers aren't that bad if you use a technique advocated by Dean Grennell:

    Instead of scooping the powder up with the dipper, push the dipper down into the container of powder (e.g. a small cup) and let the powder flow over the top of the dipper until full to overflowing, then strike off gently with a piece of straight cardboard or business card. Variances with extruded powders can be less than a grain, depending upon which type you are using. Ball powders do better than that. The technique is similar to how a powder measure fills the drum, and powder measures can vary less than .1 grain with with ball or short extruded powders, depending upon the charge weight.

    For me, if the powder meters accurately, there is no need to weigh it unless you are near maximum charges. A halfway decent powder measure will do well enough if you have a good technique. I like the Lee Perfect, as it does well with extruded powders, but a few types of ball powder cause some binding of the drum and make the operation of the lever a bit sticky. With those I use the adjustable cavity on my Lyman measure. I have shot some very good groups using H4895 and powder dispensed from a Lee powder measure with the 220 Speer. Similar results have occurred with other powders and bullets.

    How about next time using the Lee powder measure and see if there is an improvement? I will admit to dropping a lot of powder charges through a measure, since a lot of my load development is done at the range. Or as big medicine suggests, weigh the charges at home and shoot them at the range. You've done most of the load development already, but as he suggests you ought to weigh the charges to see what you're getting as to actual weight. When filled the Dean Grennell way I find my Lee dippers usually dispense a little less powder than the amount they claim.

    For whatever it's worth, a guy at my gun club uses Lee dippers and the Lee Loader to handload superaccurate .223 ammo in his custom AR-15 match rifle using 80 grain bullets in his 1-7 twist barrel. I've seen his groups and he does very well. It is all in the technique.

    Big medicine:

    Where in Pawnee City do you live? You're not too far from me. I think there is an NRCS office there that I've been to once or twice.

  11. #10
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    Paging 35 REM and other Reloading Gurus

    No I did not weigh each charge that I dipped. I did use the Dean Grenell method and it has worked very well in the past with 30-30 rounds. Again I was striving for consistency and ease of operation to get me in the ball park. I realize your point may be that if the dipper technique is bad inconsistent loads will not give best accuracy.

    The loads at Hodgdon max were loaded using the Lee perfect measure.

    My groups weren't too horrible for ethical hunting just much bigger than the factory loads that I thought other than powder I was pretty close to.
    If it were a huge concern for this season I would simply buy another box of factory sight in for that and plink with reloads. Knowing what it can do makes me want to be able to load it to that capability.

    I would really like to stay with H4895 as my 30-30's like it also.

    Thanks for all the help with this. I will keep plugging away hopefully I will get a chance to work with it some more before season. If not, some off hand shooting at features in the clay pit out to 100 or so paces gave 6" groups. Which is about as far as I can ever see when hunting and mostly should get a chance to brace for a better shot.


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