new to the 450 have a question..

[35REM]

Hey all i dont know much about the 450 marlin and i dont own one(would like to in the next few years). but compared to the 45-70, are there any advantages over it?, or mostly what is the difference between the two? thanks... when your exploring the world of firearms and ammunition lots there are lots of questions LOL.

-35rem

[FHBrumb]

With factory loads, the 450 is a harder hitter. 

Handloaders can load a 45-70 to hit just as hard however. 

But the 45-70 offers more choices (vastly more) in factory loads.

Pick your poison...

[35REM]

i think i would end up going with the 45-70, just because i think its a more proven cartridge over the years, not sayin anything bad about the 450 marlin but i would probably prefer the 45-70, i just have yet to get another marlin.  i have abad case of marlinitis and another of not having the money to buy "medicine"lol thanks

[jaycocreek]

Actually,factory 45-70 ammo exceeds 450 ammo such as Buffalo Bore/Grizzly Cartridge loads..The difference does not really count.The biggest factor to consider is case capacity and the 450 Marlin brass holds 7 grains less powder than the Winchester 45-70 brass says Speer.

As measured by Brian Pierce!!!

1-.450 Marlin Brass/73.5 grains of water(2.7 grains less than Remington 45-70 Brass!!!)
2-.45-70 Remington Brass/76.2 grains of water(1.3 grains less than Starline Brass)
3-.45-70 Starline Brass/77.5 grains of water(2.8 grains less than Winchester Brass)
4-.45-70 Winchester Brass/80.3 grains of water.(4.1 grains "More" than Remington Brass.)

The real difference is the belt on the 450 so some idiot can't put it in his trap door 45-70.The 450 and 45-70 are so close that it is up to the individual to what he wants..Extra case capacity means bigger boolits go alittle faster. ...Components seem to be cheaper for the 45-70..You could never go wrong with either.

Jayco

[Jake]

Lets compare apples to apples.  I don't consider Buffalo Bore and the like as factory, its specialty.  So specialty 450's will still blow away specialty 45/70 just as factory 450's will blow away factory 45/70's.

There are a few things to consider here.

Whatever a 450 will kill, a 45/70 will do as well.

A 45/70 comes in stainless

A 45/70 has many ammo options

A 450 on gunbroker at the moment can be had for less than $450 and ammo for $17 a box in bulk so for $790 you can have a beast of a rifle and 400 rounds...thats a square deal.

I would probably pic 45/70 if I had to do it all over again as a plinker.  If you don't plink and you want to make a one time purchase, you can't beat the current 450 rates.  I believe once that ammo is gone, its gone. Its about $36 a box otherwise.

The 450 ballistics are about identical to your 35 rem.

[jaycocreek]

So specialty 450's will still blow away specialty 45/70

Not so but they are so close it is pointless to even consider one is better than the other.The main factor with the 450 Marlin is brass capacity.The larger case capacity of the 45-70 gives it a slight advantage any animal could not tell. Grizzly doesn't make 450 Marlin ammo as far as I know.

Buffalo Bore 45-70/430 cast=1925 fps
Buffalo Bore 450 M/430 cast=1900 fps
Grizzly Cart 45-70/420 cast=1950 fps

Buffalo Bore 45-70/405 jfp=2,000 fps
Buffalo Bore 450 M/405 jfp=1975 fps
Grizzly Cart 45-70/499 jfp=2,000 fps

The standard 450 Marlin ammunition is loaded to 41,900 PSI while the standard SAAMI 45-70 ammo is loaded no more than 28,000 because of the older models out there that will not take the modern loads for the modern action.The Hornady factory 350 FP ammunition shot in a 24" test barrel is 2198 fps then shot in a Guide Gun is 2028 fps.

Marlin and Hornady did there job well creating the 450 Marlin to duplicate what the modern '95 action can take in the 45-70 yet putting a belt on it so it cannot be put into an older Trap Door or weaker action.The two cartridges are realistically equivalent with the only thorn I know of is the cost of brass and brass capacity.

Either rifle will serve you well.

Jayco 

[Jake]

Those aren't the only specialty companies or bullet weights, but your right..."pointless"

Check out some of these ballistics and energy from this specialty house:

http://www.rbcd.net/Special%20Application%20Ammunition.htm

They don't carry 450 or 4570 yet but some of the others that do have crazy claims.

[Warhawk]

Lets compare apples to apples.  I don't consider Buffalo Bore and the like as factory, its specialty.  So specialty 450's will still blow away specialty 45/70 just as factory 450's will blow away factory 45/70's.

There are a few things to consider here.

Whatever a 450 will kill, a 45/70 will do as well.

A 45/70 comes in stainless

A 45/70 has many ammo options

A 450 on gunbroker at the moment can be had for less than $450 and ammo for $17 a box in bulk so for $790 you can have a beast of a rifle and 400 rounds...thats a square deal.

I would probably pic 45/70 if I had to do it all over again as a plinker.  If you don't plink and you want to make a one time purchase, you can't beat the current 450 rates.  I believe once that ammo is gone, its gone. Its about $36 a box otherwise.

The 450 ballistics are about identical to your 35 rem.

Also, the 45-70 is and has been available in dozens of different model rifles. THe 450 is chambered in a couple of Marlins, a Steyr bolt action and maybe an H&R single shot.

The 45-70 is getting close to 150 years old and is still going strong. I feel pretty safe in saying that the .450 Marlin won't have the same longevity.

[Jake]

Hey, I just sold my 450 Marlin today pending the individual shooting it (uh-oh)  

You can thank Hornady for that.  With recent trouble using 30-30 leverevolution, I just don't want to be restricted to basically one namebrand ammo company.

Thats why I'm out of the 308mx business too.

[FredT]

Just my 2 cents worth since I own both in new Marlins, a ported .450 Guide and a Davidson's LTD in .45-70. If you reload then there is no difference, same guns. If you do not and must buy factory ammo then the.450 will have the edge. A commercial reloader friend gave me a 5 gallon pail 3/4 full of once fired .450 brass. Said he had no use for it. Had to buy a Guide gun to use the not needed stuff in. Another friend owned a gun store which is also a deer check station. I gave him a deer that I checked in so his wife later said to sell me gun at cost, ergo the M1895G. I will say that the porting really works with a top end 405 load. The same equivalent in the Davidson's .45-70 took the shooting glasses right off of my face. I should say that my glasses stood still as my face moved rearward!

[Vance in AK.]

Also, the 45-70 is and has been available in dozens of different model rifles. THe 450 is chambered in a couple of Marlins, a Steyr bolt action and maybe an H&R single shot.

The 45-70 is getting close to 150 years old and is still going strong. I feel pretty safe in saying that the .450 Marlin won't have the same longevity.

"Also, the 45-70 is and has been available in dozens of different model rifles. THe 450 is chambered in a couple of Marlins, a Steyr bolt action and maybe an H&R single shot."
I only need it in one gun   My 1895M

"The 45-70 is getting close to 150 years old and is still going strong. I feel pretty safe in saying that the .450 Marlin won't have the same longevity."
I feel pretty safe in Saying I won't have that kind of longevity either!   I do have enough brass that I should be OK for the rest of my natural life, but if FredT wants to part with any I might be interested.
I love my 1895M.  Even though I live in costal Alaska I still like blue & walnut.
And yes, for the handloared they are neck-n-neck.  Initial brass cost is steeper for the 450 but a couple hundred pieces will last the average guy a couple of lifetimes.  Heck, 50 pieces would do it for most folks.

[AKsoldier]

I've got the walnut/blued 1895M like Vance. I started with four boxes of factory Hornady ammo and I just re-load the cases. That should last me a few years. I've got about 500 bullets, all hard cast varying from 405 to 500 grains and two pounds of RL7. The 450 Marlin is not a weapon that you put hundereds of rounds through unless you like shoulder surgery. I love it though, can't wait to get home and try it out with all it's new bells and whistles.

[mountain_man86]

Actually,factory 45-70 ammo exceeds 450 ammo such as Buffalo Bore/Grizzly Cartridge loads..The difference does not really count.The biggest factor to consider is case capacity and the 450 Marlin brass holds 7 grains less powder than the Winchester 45-70 brass says Speer.

Actually, when measuring case capacity, there is one factor not mentioned in those measurements.. Case thickness..  Is each of those brands are trimmed the exact same, I guarantee that the weights will come up different.  For those that hold more weight in water such as the winchester holding 80.3 grs, you can rest assured that the case has thinner walls, and therefore, less strong than others.. 

For myself, it actually comes down to what I want to shoot..  Do I want a 45/70, or a 450?  If you want to do 2 guns eventually, but one round for both, think this through.. the 450 can be chambered in short action bolt rifles, such as a Remington model 7.  This would be an interesting way to go by doing a 22 inch barrel on a Model 7, with a Marlin guide gun to go along..  However, we all know how hindsight is, and as my father says "Put want in one hand, take a dump in the other, and see which one fills up first.."   MERRY CHRISTMAS!

[Vance in AK.]

Actually,factory 45-70 ammo exceeds 450 ammo such as Buffalo Bore/Grizzly Cartridge loads..The difference does not really count.The biggest factor to consider is case capacity and the 450 Marlin brass holds 7 grains less powder than the Winchester 45-70 brass says Speer.

Actually, when measuring case capacity, there is one factor not mentioned in those measurements.. Case thickness..  Is each of those brands are trimmed the exact same, I guarantee that the weights will come up different.  For those that hold more weight in water such as the winchester holding 80.3 grs, you can rest assured that the case has thinner walls, and therefore, less strong than others.. 

For myself, it actually comes down to what I want to shoot..  Do I want a 45/70, or a 450?  If you want to do 2 guns eventually, but one round for both, think this through.. the 450 can be chambered in short action bolt rifles, such as a Remington model 7.  This would be an interesting way to go by doing a 22 inch barrel on a Model 7, with a Marlin guide gun to go along..  However, we all know how hindsight is, and as my father says "Put want in one hand, take a dump in the other, and see which one fills up first.."   MERRY CHRISTMAS!

I believe the capacity difference comes due to different case dimensions on the 45-70 (it's bigger in places), rather than redced case wall thickness.
As for chambering a blot gun to match, there are thousands of nice old Mausers out there that have been rechambered to 45-70 already, although a little model 7 in 450 would be sweet!  Not sure what you would gain over the guide gun though...

[bishopgrandpa]

I have four 450's and five 45-70's. Yes, the 45-70 can do anything the 450 can (I do reload) but being able to say I have a 450 means something to those that like them. They look good, feel good and are good. You just have to be a 450 person to understand what holding a 450MR is like.