CAST IN MICROGROOVE BBLS

[janott]

I have been casting for many years and have had leading problems from time to time but have over come this problem years ago. One problem that I have found is not fluxing your lead often, you cannot over flux. Undersized bullets. Too high of velosity without gas checks. Many different combinations can cause leading. I have been shooting lead bullets out of my micro groove 22 caliber rifles for years with no problems so centerfire should not be much different if cleaned and maintained.

Joe

[lantrad]

Can I hear some input on prefered hardness range you shoot for. What for target and what for hunting. I have a '52 336A with ballard rifling and an old Lyman 31141 mold. I can get a 12. something amost everytime with the mix i use without water quenching. Would like to end up with a hunting load and a target load. Got plenty of lino and 15-20 buckets of wheel weights. Should I mix for hardness or quench? I have read everything at Beartooth but it has been a while. If I remember right they prefer a brinnel hardnes of around 12. Thanks, Rick

[janott]

Can I hear some input on prefered hardness range you shoot for. What for target and what for hunting. I have a '52 336A with ballard rifling and an old Lyman 31141 mold. I can get a 12. something amost everytime with the mix i use without water quenching. Would like to end up with a hunting load and a target load. Got plenty of lino and 15-20 buckets of wheel weights. Should I mix for hardness or quench? I have read everything at Beartooth but it has been a while. If I remember right they prefer a brinnel hardnes of around 12. Thanks, Rick

Rick,

  You can get it harder by quinching but 12 is good if the bullet is the correct size for the barrel and you use a good lube. I have water quinched for some time but it only hardens the outside of the bullet from what I have read and they say that over time the lead will soften to it's mixed hardness, I have had water quinched bullets that went way over 12.  Rifles that I cast for I have kept in the upper velocitie range but have started to make paper patch bullets for them and had great results with no leading at all. I have cast and patched and loaded 220 grain bullets for my 338 winchester magnum but the weather has been to wet to test them. I have made PPB's for the 45-70, and 30-30 with fantastic results, the barrels are much easyier to clean. I also plan on making them for the 7mm Mauser, 30-06, 41 and 44 Remington magnums because I will not need to mess or worrie about the hardness or leading, but then I have the papers to deal with which I do enjoy. When making PPB's the lead is normally left soft but I have tried some cast with a tad of tin in the mix and had great results. If you flux your mix often your bullets will drop from the mold and be within a few tenths of a grain when you keep your temperatures and methods consistent, and with a Bh of 12 you should do well by mixing for hardness, and if you want to give the paper patch bullets a shot then you are already there with the casting equipment that you already have. Just need papers.

Joe

[swany]

Just yesterday I had my 30-30 out and I had some .309 cast bullet loads that at 25 yds made a pattern on the target not unlike a shotgun blast!  Now I know why.
So if one wanted .311s is there anyone that is making them or is it a do-it yourself thing?  Midway's out...they won't ship anything to Canada now.

Buying a mold for like .303 british or 7.7 japenese will get you there.

Dont give up on the .309s yet you may just be driving them on the fast side or too slow.

Today, I shot some of my favorite load  7 gns of Unique 170gn bevel base cast in my ballard 1949 336 30-30 loaded some up to blow out some of my R-P brass I recently aquired over 800 once fired. They done okay in that about 4 inch at 75

While I had it set up I also loaded some for my 1987 Microgroove 30-30 mind you these are 170gn Cast .308 dia bevel base with the "crayon lube" which I don't like the lube either. Needed to fireform some more new brass. Here is the target at 100yds. 7gns Unique WW cases CCI 200

"Swany, Tested pewter bullets in my Marlin microgroove today. My main concern was that they would fly to pieces at hi speed, but this did not happen, even though I could drive these 85g 30 caliber marvels at better than 2800fps. Accuracy was only so so at 50yds at about 2.6" for a 3 shot group, but that was only a first attempt and there is plenty of room for refinement. The good thing is that they shoot to the same point of impact as regular bullets and no barrel fouling problems. I really do not want to hijack this very excellent thread so I will continue my rant in the Bigbore and other related topics column. Regards Murphy."

Dont worry about it, you are not hi jacking anything after all you are shooting cast from a micrgroove bbl. I'm interested in anything I can shoot out of a 30-30 at 2800fps especially cast. Them 85gn bullets might just work real nice at around .22 mag velocities.

Pewter being non lead, I would think our California folks living in Condor sanctuary would be interested. I do believe you could load a very large mold say 220 -240 gn and wind up with a nice 125gn or so.

[Murphy]

To Swanny,  The pewter experiment has wetted my appetite for tough bullets and today I am going to try to make a new alloy. I managed to scrounge 5lbs of brass and 1lb of copper 10lb of lino type and 10lb of lead. I am going to make a hole in the ground and fill it with charcoal an blow air into it from an air compresser. If I can get things hot enough to melt the brass and copper life should be interesting.

[swany]

Hope you read this before you try, the melting point of copper is hot enough to burn the pewter like it was made of wood.

Try some lead free sold into your pewter weigh it to make sure what you are mixing. Quench them in cold water they should get harder.

Want to try something? Figure 1/4 inch copper tubing is the inside dia the outside is closer to .30 cal you would have to measure it first. 5/16th is .312 if it is near that. You could pour some pewter in a short section for a jacketed bullet.

One of the MarlinTalk members modified a 38-55 mold so it would take short sections of 3/8ths copper tubing and he would pour pure lead in it and make his own jacketed. Claimed they worked well.

[76Bronco]

I am new to this so please excuse any ignorance.  I bought a 336 in 30-30 from my uncle’s estate.  The serial number dates it to around 1964.  I want to start casting, so I ran a .35 dia. round ball down the barrel to get a bore dia.  It came out at .305.  I cleaned it good, and tried another; same .305.  The thing that I am concerned about is that in two spots in the barrel it was tighter than the rest of the barrel.  The barrel “looks” shiny all the way down, and I am sure my uncle never fired anything but store-bought ammo in the thing.  This is the first time I have tried to slug a barrel, so I want to know #1, is it normal for the barrel to have tight spots, and #2, is a .305 dia. Normal for a 30-30?

Thanks,

76Bronco

[Edward Teach]

Yeah I'm going to give the .309s another shot...I made up a few with some varying Trail Boss loads (7-9 gr) and see if they fly a little straighter.  They don't have gas checks so I may just be pushing them too hard.  I also bought a box of jackets to compare, but it shot factory ammo just fine so they'll probably shoot fine as well.

[Ranch Dog]

This was long overdue for a stickey and I see there is some interest to it. 30wcf nice read appreciate it.

Not to stomp on any toes boardwise, but we do have an excellent cast bullets section and paper patched section. Both for the caster a good place on Marlin Owners to visit.

Do keep the data coming.

Should this post be moved to "Bullet Casting" instead of the "336" forum?

[Ranch Dog]

I am new to this so please excuse any ignorance.  I bought a 336 in 30-30 from my uncle’s estate.  The serial number dates it to around 1964.  I want to start casting, so I ran a .35 dia. round ball down the barrel to get a bore dia.  It came out at .305.  I cleaned it good, and tried another; same .305.  The thing that I am concerned about is that in two spots in the barrel it was tighter than the rest of the barrel.  The barrel “looks” shiny all the way down, and I am sure my uncle never fired anything but store-bought ammo in the thing.  This is the first time I have tried to slug a barrel, so I want to know #1, is it normal for the barrel to have tight spots, and #2, is a .305 dia. Normal for a 30-30?

Thanks,

76Bronco

Bronco,

That is quite a restriction, I've never seen or heard of a Marlin barrel being that tight. What I would do would be to run a sinker in the muzzle end of the barrel, not deeper that the front sight tap, and then remove it. Usually when you slug a barrel, you take two measurements. The one I just mentioned and then a full length. That tells you about restrictions.

May be it is an issue with the alloy of the round ball? The absolute best material for slugging a barrel is a lead egg fishing sinker. These are the sinkers that are oval, with the hole through the longitudinal axis. That hole will relieve the compression and minimize any error. It should be measured with a micrometer and not a caliper.

[76Bronco]

Ranch Dog , I don’t have a micrometer.  I did try an egg sinker.  It is the same .305, but I did not feel the resistance in different areas of the barrel as I did with the round ball.  I wonder if the ball was turning in the barrel.  The sinker is longer, so it may be more stable. 

I also noticed in 30wcf’s post that the diameter should be .304.  This is close, and my cheap caliper, (or the operator!), may be off that much. 

Are you the Ranch Dog that makes the molds I have been reading about?  I am trying to decide which to buy and was looking on that site.

[Ranch Dog]

Oh, I see you are talking about bore vs. groove. Your rifle isn't any different than the others if you are comparing the information posted 30WCF. You are saying that your rifle's bore is .305" compared the bore diameter offered in 30WCF's post. You need to be concerned about filling the greater diameter. I would want a .311" bullet.

Yeap, I'm the Ranch Dog guy.

[swany]

Should this post be moved to "Bullet Casting" instead of the "336" forum?[/quote]

Nah I put this one up here because we get a lot of folks asking the question, figured I would put it as a stickey here and I have redirected a few in the cast section. If it gets too big I'll move it with a redirection.



The tight spots you are expieriencing are likely the normal ones where your dovetails are broached in the bbl. If you have a 336A one under the front sight for mag tube, another under the fore end cap, another under the rear sight.

.305 sounds normal for the inside of the rifling lands, you should be coming up with around .309 for the grooves. Two areas you can run a quick check is the muzzle and fwd of the chamber by simple driving you sinker in a inch or so and back out.

[Murphy]

The brass and copper alloy was a failure because my equiptment just could not get it hot enough. Think I was nearly there as the brass began to glow but did not melt. Pewter has a level of copper in it so it must be possible to somehow alloy the metals. If I could get hold of some oxy aceteline equiptment it might be a different story. Beats me how the ancients did it as I have seen some pretty bronze arrow heads, and they didn't even have an air compresser or access to Simsmeal Ptl. to buy their scrap. On a happier note I have got my 308 to shoot the 85g pewters simply by changing the seating depth. It likes them 75 thou off the lands for a 1.2" 3shot 100yd group. The 336 is still shooting them around 2 1/2" at 50yds so I may have to back off my load a bit. Today I will get out my chrono and see how fast they are going, hope the chrony behaves as I only have 2 puter bullets left. Reguards to all Murphy.

[gb_in_tx]

Beats me how the ancients did it as I have seen some pretty bronze arrow heads, and they didn't even have an air compresser or access to Simsmeal Ptl. to buy their scrap.

Charcoal or coal and a bellows.