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38-55-25 @1500 fps enough?

5K views 18 replies 10 participants last post by  dgslr 
#1 ·
I think I have a suitably accurate load (assuming the results are repeatable) for a .38-55 load in my 1893 to use on lever action silhouette. But I've never shot the game, and I will get very few chances. So, I am looking to prepare well in advance, as opposed to the learn-as-I-go routine (which I will end up doing anyway, to some extent).

In your considered opinions - would a 250 gr lyman FN moving at 1500 fps (19.5 gr of 4759) be enough to derail 200m rams pretty much every time? Seems to be a pleasant load to shoot.

Thanks,
Brent
 
#2 ·
I shoot the 250 lyman bullet over 8 grains of green dot, I think it is about 1200 fps It works pretty well for me but you will get some dingers if the rams are not set correctly to the back of the rail. Your load is a bit faster so you shouldn't have any problems but there is only one way to be sure.
 
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#3 ·
Thanks guy. That is exactly what I wanted to know and about what I expected. Setting targets is always iffy and even in bpcr, I've well hit rams with a. .45-100-550 and left them standing so anything can happen. Sound like my load will get it done just fine. That's good news.

Brent
 
#4 ·
A friend of mine used to shoot hunter pistol with a .300 whisper. The load was a 200 grainer starting at about 1050 fps. At 200 yards, it was going around 900 or so. It would take the rams down almost always, though they fell a little slow. Your load should work fine.
 
#5 ·
BrentD,
I would say that load would work pretty well even on full footed silhouettes. I have been told that the rams on the Cowboy Silhouette range in Whittington Center are offset properly according to NRA rules and that even the 25-35 Winchester has worked very well there...having been used on at least a couple of different occassions to win the National Championship. On full footed rams, the 25-35 doesn't work so well........

w30wcf
 
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#6 ·
thanks for the note w30wcf. Esp. for the news about Raton. I'll be shooting there for sure, and probably in Omaha this summer. I've never shot the lever action silhouette anywhere, so I'm just trying go get as many ducks in a row as possible.

Tomorrow I will retest the load and see if the accuracy I had last weekend holds up and is repeatable. If so, I'm good to go on smokeless loads.

Right now, I have a hundred bullets cooling in a pan of homebrew lube to use with blackpowder. My next project with this rifle will be to duplicate the accuracy of the smokeless loads with blackpowder. I'd prefer to shoot it, but the format of the silhouette match seems to prevent wiping and blow tubing, so I wanted to get smokeless worked out first. Looks like I'm close.

This lever rifle is ridiculously fun to shoot. It will go antelope hunting this fall, if we draw.

Brent
 
#7 ·
I've shot the Lee 250 pushed to 1300 fps with Unique and it had plenty enough not just tip them over but I also had enough rear sight elevator (open sights) for a right on hold. REALLY smacks the chickens hard too.
 
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#8 ·
All things being equal, and the shot hits said Ram, depending on the big steels footing, particualr shape, [bowed or not]
The angle at which the bullet strikes the target, the place in which it hits the ram...it may or may not go down everytime..hows that for scientific deduction...

:biggrin:
C45
 
#9 · (Edited by Moderator)
I have used 10 grs. of Unique with a 265 gr cast bullet from Hunters supply at 1250 ish fps in my 38/55.It has no problems with the rams.It does require 80 clicks on the Williams FP to get from the pigs to the rams.I use 19 grs of 2400 with the same bullet with a gas check and get 1625 fps.I have to come down 8 clicks from the 100 m zero with unique to shoot the rams.1500 fps will smack the rams pretty good.An alleged formula for enough thump at the rams is: velocity at 200 X the bullet weight divided by 225000

the 10 gr.of unique velocity at 200 m is 1041fps X 265grs = 275865/225000 = 1.226066
Supposedly a factor of 1 will knock over the rams all the time,well most of the time
The 44/40 200 gr at 1400 at the muzzle leaves one or two rams that were hit standing.
200 m velocity is 925 fps X 200 grs.=185000/225000=.8222
From this you can guesstimate if your loads have enough energy out there at the rams but nothing is written in stone.
I rang a turkey once with my 45/70.It spun like a top but didn't fall.
 
#10 ·
Sounds like I'm in good shape with the velocity based on all the input here. That helps a lot.

I seem to be having a big problem in the accuracy department however. I thought 19.5 grs of 4759 was going to be the magic. It gave me a 9-shot group that was 1.25"v x 2.5"h, with the horizontal being easily accounted for by the wind at the time. But I have failed to reproduce that in 2 separate attempts. The horizontal part I have reproduced w/o problem and on calm mornings, I will drastically beat that number every time, but the vertical jumps to 5" at best to over 12" with a few bullets being unaccounted for off the paper. Very frustrating.

Since then, I discovered two things that my contribute to this problem. One is a loose mag-tube dovetail at the muzzle end of my 93. Really loose! So, that's been fixed.

The other thing I discovered last time is that by holding the rifle vertical after chambering every round causes the group to form 8-10" higher than the bottom of what had been going on before (which had much of the vertical component). Apparently 4759 is very position sensitive. So, I've loaded some rounds with filler and will see how that does.

Thanks again for the help on the velocities.

Brent
 
#11 · (Edited)
Brent,
If you have a wad punch, another thing to try would be to cut some discs from paper. Place the disc down on the powder with a 3/8" (sanded down slightly) wooden dowel. Placing the 4-6" dowel in a drill and filing/sanding a slight convex on the face will help lock the paper in place. Paper with a thickness of .005-.007 works best. That has worked like a charm in my 45-70.

Regarding a loose magazine tube, I have found that just a little bit of play (010"-.020") will typically improve groups because it allows the barrel to float a bit. Each rifle is a law unto itself though, but that has been my experience......

Good luck,
w30wcf
 
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#12 ·
FWIW, I have had excellent results with the Lyman 250 over 20 gr H4198. However, this is with a 336CB and not an 1983. If I take my time and do my part, I have gotten as good as a 2 1/2" group at 200M. All groups are obviously not that good, but they were not bad either. Also has plenty of punch for the rams, whether set soft or full foot.
 
#13 ·
I started with 4198 and then moved on to other powders because I thought it was doing poorly. Now, I wonder if some of the other issues I was having (leading, loose mag tube, powder position, etc etc.) might have been the problem. I will be revisiting it eventually.

Brent
 
#14 ·
As long as I don't try to push them too fast, 4198 has been the best powder for the Lyman bullet. I forgot to mention that I am using a Lee Shaver mid-range Soule sight and a Lyman 17a on the front. Those two things do wonders for my accuracy. I am also shooting them as cast and pan lubing with SPG.
 
#15 ·
GTS,
I'm using a Lyman 17A up front with an aperture (for now) and a Ballard #3 Gallery sight (basically the same sight as on a Ballard Pacific) in the rear. It has no windage but that is of no matter for shooting groups. Aiming accuracy is good.

I was using SPG, but got leaded, so switched to homebrew. Lead is way down, but not entirely gone. Need to try a bit more tallow in it, but my dog, Gus, ate the rest of my sheep tallow the other night. :(
 
#16 ·
BrentD,

New to the game myself, years later. The math indicates 1,500 should stay supersonic to 200 and terminal ballistics are 170% of the momentum needed to down the Ram. However, theoretical often does not transfer to practical. I have good Chicken and Pig loads. Starting on the Turkey and Ram loads now for my 336 CB 38-55.

Tell me your adventures, good, bad, and ugly. I hope your experiences can provide guidance that speeds my adventure.
 
#17 ·
I don't think you will have any problem with knocking the rams over. I shoot a 255 grain bullet at less than 1200 fps and have never left a ram standing regardless of where it was hit in the body. I don't pay much attention to the numbers, it's results that count.
 
#18 ·
BrentD.

I could tell you that you pan is solid. However, it sounds like you need some proof or a way to calculate the force / momentum down range for yourself. See page 5 of the attached link document to calculate the terminal momentum relative to what is needed to consistently down the Ram, 200 or 500 game.

There are several internet ballistics calculators to predict the velocity at 200. If you can start at a velocity that stays supersonic to the target you will have better accuracy.

http://www.ihmsa.org/uploads/3/4/4/0/34407353/dec2015.pdf

Enjoy.
 
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