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Thread: .444 Marlin vs. 45-70 Debate



  1. #31
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    .444 Marlin vs. 45-70 Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by mommicked
    My father in-law and a couple buds seem to think so, and they have no "evidence" other than opinion as they own 45-70's and mock the .444.

    Why would one who clearly hunts with a superior weapon need to look down on one who can kill with an inferior one? The Poor Fourty Four is like the longbow of the Big Bore world!!! :roll: :lol:
    Thats because they believe all that .458 propaganda.............the truth is out there ands it closer then you think!..................................Marko
    Their are only two kinds of people, those who own a 444 and those who wish they owned one,
    and yes folks, denial is bliss!

    Not much has really changed in the world in 2000 years, Christians are still being thrown to the Lions! and
    Satans tool of Deception is still working like a charm, from the time of Adam and Eve, to today!
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  2. #32
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    *** REPLY TO NRA-RN ***

    Yup , -- I guess you could project that logic down to smaller and smaller calibers .

    I figure , however , that you've got to keep tying to what the main purpose of the cartridge is .

    If you stick with Big-Bore lever action rifles , then with .375 you've moved out of the box into a Medium-Bore cartridge . --- But that's not too off-topic , because .375 is still a big caliber , capable of carrying relatively heavy bullets , -- for use against big tough animals .

    And you've got to consider that .375 H&H has a storied reputation for killing way beyond it's ballistics on paper . ( Too bad someone doesn't make a .375 H&H Lever Action ) .

    If you go below .375 , -- then I would think that you've moved completely outside the
    ( topic ) box .

    Seems to me when these .444 vs. .45-70 threads come up , -- people are mostly looking to justify their personal favorite , -- ( for whatever reason ) . --- I'll plead guilty to that myself .

    But , I think it's not a matter of which cartridge is all-time " best " , because that tempts us to have a certain useage in mind , -- and that ain't necessarily what someone else has in mind .

    If you really want to ask me whether the .444 or .45-70 is best , -- I'll have to ask , best for what ?

    Then before I answer , I'll have to know what the hunting conditions will be , the country , the weather , the anticipated ranges , -- all the particulars about the game animal to be hunted , -- whether they ever charge the hunter , -- and on , and on .

    And I'll have to get very detailed answers because the .444 and .45-70 are such similar cartridges .

    Actually , there ain't no " best " ; -- the .444 will shine for some situations , and the .45-70 will be better for others ; --- and MOST , ( not all ) , similar tasks will be covered adequately by either one .

    If I knew I'd be in Coastal Alaska , and needed a pure Bear-Defense rifle , and had to carry a Lever Gun ; -- you can bet your Bippy , I'd choose the .45-70 with the hairyest hard casts I could shoot safely , ( unless I could afford a custom .50 Alaskan ) .

    A similarly loaded .444 would not be far behind , though .

    For general big game , in the lower 48 , -- I'd much rather have the .444 , for the reasons stated above .

    That's overview , on what I really think . --- The rest is just havin' fun .

    --------------- MMCOUGAR .
    Benefactor Life Member , NRA . - NRA Legion of Honor -
    -- They could have said -- " The right of " SUCH A MILITIA " to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed " . . . But instead they specified , " THE PEOPLE " .
    -- Just-Missed Charter Membership , -- in Team .444 -- #55 .
    -- Grand Pappy member of Sub-Forum - 1894 -- #01 .

  3. #33
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    *** REPLY TO JACKFISH ***

    Hmmm , -- if Elmer lived 20 yrs. with the .444 around , you gotta assume that he stayed consistent with his , -- " bigger is better " philosophy . Also , you might conclude that he figured big-caliber trumped Sectional density , :shock: .

    But wait , --- then why didn't he go with magnumizing the .45 Long-Colt , -- why did he drop back in caliber to his trademark .44 Mag. ??

    Yop , you got it , --- SECTIONAL DENSITY . . . . . And , after all , a .444 is just an elongated .44 Mag , -- Actually , it was Elmer's concept :roll: .

    Naw , --- The only reason Elmer didn't endorse the .444 , was because Marlin slapped their iron on it first . :lol: :lol: .


    --- NTTT , ---- MMCOUGAR .
    Benefactor Life Member , NRA . - NRA Legion of Honor -
    -- They could have said -- " The right of " SUCH A MILITIA " to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed " . . . But instead they specified , " THE PEOPLE " .
    -- Just-Missed Charter Membership , -- in Team .444 -- #55 .
    -- Grand Pappy member of Sub-Forum - 1894 -- #01 .

  4. #34
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    Re: *** REPLY TO JACKFISH ***

    Quote Originally Posted by MMCOUGAR
    Hmmm , -- if Elmer lived 20 yrs. with the .444 around , you gotta assume that he stayed consistent with his , -- " bigger is better " philosophy . Also , you might conclude that he figured big-caliber trumped Sectional density , :shock: .

    But wait , --- then why didn't he go with magnumizing the .45 Long-Colt , -- why did he drop back in caliber to his trademark .44 Mag. ??

    Yop , you got it , --- SECTIONAL DENSITY . . . . . And , after all , a .444 is just an elongated .44 Mag , -- Actually , it was Elmer's concept :roll: .

    Naw , --- The only reason Elmer didn't endorse the .444 , was because Marlin slapped their iron on it first . :lol: :lol: .



    --- NTTT , ---- MMCOUGAR .
    Theres a lot of truth to what you say, elmer was a 44cal kind of guy only in a pistol.

    and everything he did with a 44mag is just a stunt. :twisted:...Marko
    Their are only two kinds of people, those who own a 444 and those who wish they owned one,
    and yes folks, denial is bliss!

    Not much has really changed in the world in 2000 years, Christians are still being thrown to the Lions! and
    Satans tool of Deception is still working like a charm, from the time of Adam and Eve, to today!
    Charter Member #3 Team 444
    Member # 379 Team 1894
    Member # 1053 Team 30-30
    Member # 338 Team 39

  5. #35
    Deadeye
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    .444 Marlin vs. 45-70 Debate

    Marko,

    Elmer Kieth was no stunt man, but the real deal.

    To say otherwise is a very cheap shot at a good man...

    Stick to beatin up on the 45-70 and those who love it, it's what you are better at...

    JMO.



    BC
    unters are not afraid of thorns!

  6. #36
    Tenderfoot
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    hard cast keith like would be my choice over jacketed

    I think the .444 would do nicely especially with a nice wheel weight plus 5% tin cast bullet in a 250 to 300 gr large flat point. I already have an 8mm Rem Mag to push 160 - 250 gr bullets. Plus If I were lucky and rich enough to go to Africa, a .375 Ruger would be my first consideration.

    I would think a little less recoil and a bullet only a 0.01" smaller would not make a difference, if the shot was on the mark. Well that is if the mark was less than a Kodiak or Cape buffalo.

    I have shot elk, deer, and then a peccary (<60lb live weight) with a 30-06 and agree that pigs deserve respect and a bigger caliber is a good idea.


    But the biggest animal, I have killed was a steer on our farm, and it was with the weapon of choice a 22 rimfire. One shot within a tinny drain and Down and out!!! One shot a inch off and there is not a fence that will stop a steer, saw someone else do that on our farm too.
    Last edited by kev7griz; 12-29-2011 at 01:52 AM.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bearclaw View Post
    Marko,

    Elmer Kieth was no stunt man, but the real deal.

    To say otherwise is a very cheap shot at a good man...

    Stick to beatin up on the 45-70 and those who love it, it's what you are better at...

    JMO.



    BC

    I agree!!!
    I would not put words in the mouth of Keith. Maximizing a 45 LColt pistol is nothing like a .444 vs 45-70 rifle. Actually a 44 mag is .429 not .444 or .458. The right diam and mass with enough power bullet strengh for adequate penetration is the key - not a caliper. Just had to back you up. Good post.

  8. #38
    Tenderfoot
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMCOUGAR View Post
    Hmmm , -- if Elmer lived 20 yrs. with the .444 around , you gotta assume that he stayed consistent with his , -- " bigger is better " philosophy . Also , you might conclude that he figured big-caliber trumped Sectional density , :shock: .

    But wait , --- then why didn't he go with magnumizing the .45 Long-Colt , -- why did he drop back in caliber to his trademark .44 Mag. ??

    Yop , you got it , --- SECTIONAL DENSITY . . . . . And , after all , a .444 is just an elongated .44 Mag , -- Actually , it was Elmer's concept :roll: .

    Naw , --- The only reason Elmer didn't endorse the .444 , was because Marlin slapped their iron on it first . :lol: :lol: .


    --- NTTT , ---- MMCOUGAR .
    Agreed, Caliber does not trump SD. One has to have enough SD (weight per diam) for penetration regardless of power. Even more important is bullet placement and bullet construction (solid, expanding, or frag) combined with proper power (mass and velocity) to create sufficient penetration and vital tissue damage for a given target. .(44 mag is .429 )

    Other things such as the strengh of guns in 45 LColt availible to the general public may have been far more important than SD, the 44 mag was developed for modern pistols that could handle the high pressure.
    Last edited by kev7griz; 12-29-2011 at 02:57 AM.

  9. #39
    Tinhorn
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    Didn't you get the memo?
    " Bigger IS better' !
    number crunchers give me a headache!


    45-70 works great on big game:

    and even better on small game:


    I will confess, a .444 will probably do the same job......but a .45-70 will ensure it!

    ETA:
    One of the best bear hunters I know, perfers FMJ 55grain .223 for bears.
    He stalks them and shoots them in the head.
    you should see his skull collection!
    Last edited by Danomite45; 12-29-2011 at 03:22 AM.
    Team 45/70 member #574

  10. #40
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    .

    I agree with Dawei, With the examples you present there is no material difference. The 45-70 can be loaded up to be a real mule but for North American usage....it's a toss up.

    .


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