I'm thinking about using Barnes TSX FN 250 or 300 grain bullets in My 45/70 next year for elk and bear. The Hornady 300 hp are just to light skinned. I have loaded some before and have had extent accuracy out of both. Do you think a 250 gr would be enough?
Here is the mix
250 gr: Case-Fed,Case Trim Length: 2.095" , Primer: Fed GM210M,Barrel Length 26",Twist Rate: 1:20"
powder AA 1680, 59.0gr, Velocity 2630
300 gr: Case-Fed,Case Trim Length: 2.095" , Primer: Fed GM210M,Barrel Length 26",Twist Rate: 1:20"
powder AA 1680, 55.0gr ,Velocity 2560
I have checked the speed of the 250's the 300's is listed speed.
I'm not putting money it gold any more.
I'm now investing in " LEAD"
Even with Barnes noted weight retention, either would be too light for my liking. If I had absolutely no other choice, the 300 would get the nod, but nothing other than a broadside shot. I just don't know that there would be enough momentum for deep penetration, should the senario arise of going through a shoulder knuckle if needed. Otherwise, my preference is nothing less than 400 grs. The lightweights may have more speed and energy to start with, but they also shed both faster. Give me penetration, I can live with less energy and range (more trajectory).
I say go for it!
A 250 gr pill at 2600 fps is plenty. If a 165 gr bullet from a 308 can do it, so can a 250 or 300 grain bullet from a 45-70
Well,,, I have always figured each to his own,,,but.Originally Posted by Throttle_monkey1
A 30 cal. 165gr. has a sectional density of .248 compared to the .458 250 gr. of .170. It's not apples to apples.
Would it be practical to to use a .308 with a 115 gr. ? as that, is the apples to apples comparision.
A .458/370 gr. would be a more likely comparision to the 165 gr. .308.
mho,,,save the light weights for deer,,and then I would still use the 300 gr.
I sure would like to see the elk or bear that stops a 300gr monometal bullet at those speeds. I believe that you would get better penetration than the lead 300's, 350's or even the 400's unless you used hardcast, non-expanding bullets.
The Barnes seem to expand reliably and loose no weight, potentially providing exceptional penetration. With H4198 they provided the best accuracy in my new 1895-SBL. For shots out to 250 yards you would need a high initial velocity in order to maintain more than 1,600 ft/sec at the target. Less then that and the bullet would probably fail to expand (if that's necessary ).
One additional note:
I shot my buddy's Blaser 375 H&H over the chronograph the other day. The Federal Safari load with a 300gr Barnes bullet was clocked at 2,550 ft/sec. Your 45-70 300gr load would provide the exact same muzzle energy as his 375. Of course @ 200+ yards it would be a whole different story.
ok,,but look at it from Barnes' own recommendations, that you can get 25% more penetration with the mono's due to weight retention, when compared to the typical cup&core. Hence you can get by with 20-25% less initial weight. It still boils down sectional density for the most part. Going back to the apples to apple comparision. Add 25% SD to .170, =.212+,,,now thats comparable to a 140 gr .308. Is that something you would consider using on a elk? Not me, but again each to their own.
Also the faster the impact speed, the faster is slows down, as it expands faster creating more resistance...there a balance to everything it seems. I would take less energy and more penetration as whole, when hoping for the best, but planning for the worst.
I'm one that believes that with a .458, one don't need alot if any expansion,,,in the case of a 250 or 300 gr. I would prefer none and opt for hard cast with a wide meplat.
For what it is worth.......
The Barnes 250 grain XFN...
The 300 grain Nosler Partition...
I would definitely not feel undergunned with a .308 and a well constructed 140 grain bullet for elk, maybe for grizzly, but not elk.
I think alot of the penetration tests using the 300gr PT against about every media involved has it out penetrating alot of other well constructed bullets. I have 0 dogs in this fight, but I wouldn't be afraid of putting a 300gr PT in an elk from about any angle. Need to break out some milk jugs and see what comes out of it. Scotty
TEAM 45-70 #174
TEAM 444 #453