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.444 for long range

27K views 31 replies 18 participants last post by  rimrock 
#1 ·
According to the box, Winchester Supreme Elite XP3 (graphite coated ballistic tips) 150 grain bullets for .308 with a 200 yd zero, bullet drop at 500 yds. is 45.7", and velocity is still 1871fps. Many people shoot 150-180 grain bullets out of .308 to 1000 yds on paper. IIRC, in Iraq & Afganiustan, many of our armed forces consistently hit the enemy at 4-500 yds. with the .308. Paco Kelly and others have compared the .308 to the .444. For example, here--http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/444_misunderstood.htm.

Some of the most knowledgeable shooters I've read about or been around consider the .444 and 45/70 as close in, brush guns limited to about 225 yds.max for a killing shot.

Billy Dixon and his 45/70 buffalo gun hit an indian at 1500+ yds. IIRC, Billy Dixon was using a Sharps with a 26-30" barrel. Several confederate snipers hit British commanders at 3-400 yds. with BP and round balls. No question these folks used guns much more than we do today.

The question still remains in my mind why the .444 and 45/70 are, today, considered ineffective at 3-400 yds. even when a shooter has the skills. I feel sure I could knock down any threat at 225 yds. with my .444, and I could offer suppressive fire at 4-500 yds enough to make a BG keep low, anyway. So, why are these bonecrushers viewed as ineffective beyond 200 yds? This especially boggles my miod when you consider either cartridge using bullet weights of 300+ grains at slow, safe velocities. According to Linebaugh and others, the big, lumbering bullets will have more knock down power over longer distances when they are compared to the speed demon bullets.

rimrock
 
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#2 ·
I think you already answered the question yourself and well, you offered a perspective we often don't think of in relation to our 444(s). First of all, perceived/implied limitations on effective range has to do with trajectory and shooter skill. Highly skilled shooters of yesteryear, like those mentioned, practiced extensively in the field to the point that estimating range and trajectory became second nature. Today, we have range finders and ballistic compensating optics, but they do not make a good substitute for for practice and experience in the field. A middle weight 444 bullet (265-270 grain) at max charges, will drop over 20 inches between 200 and 300 yards when sighted in to be 2 inches high at 100 yards and zeroed at about 150 yards. That is roughly between 2" to 2.5" every 10 yards through that span. If one is just guestimating the range, a small error can equal a big difference.

When I bought my 444, the silver haired men working the gun section told me that "the 444 is a great rifle to 75 yards... Maybe 100". There is a lot of misinformation about the 444 that floats around out there. My range limitations for me shooting my 444 has entirely to do with my lack of practice with the rifle past 300 yards.

The other part, the less common perspective of using a 444 as a combat weapon. Actually, I think the thought does cross our minds, but we rarely speak of it. There is a story of a 444 being used as a bunker buster in Vietnam, but others here can speak to that better than I can. As far as lobbing bullets out to 400 and 500 yards, I'd say it still comes down to extensive practice. As you mentioned, it has been done and I suspect there are a few gents around this forum that could do quite well with their 444 at those distances.
 
#3 ·
rimrock; Go to my post (Very Interesting "numbers") and read the first page.....I have listed the ballistics of my SG 444 at long range. As you will see the "power" is there....the trajectory is a whole nuther ball game if you run the numbers. I would consider my SG 444 as a 200 yard rifle, even though it produces big power out to 1000 yards. Reasons: 1. The SG 444 was built as a Large Dangerous Game rifle.....if a LDG is further than 200 yards away, I would not consider it dangerous. 2. My SG 444 produces about 2500 ft lbs at 200 yards. I would consider that energy/TKO about the limit for cleanly taking LDG at 200 yards (although LDG could be taken further out if need be, I would feel "confident" with that power at 200 yards). 3. For any game deer size and up, the trajectory to 200 yards is very flat.... from muzzle to 200 yards the trajectory (with the 405 grain bullet) variation is only 5 to 6 inches , so holdover (if needed at all) is minimal. 4. I prefer iron sights (most of my hunting is done in feet, not yards), or low power scopes (2.5X)...I can make those shots with 2.5X out to 200 yards. 5. "If" I need to take shots at longer range, I have rifles that are set up to do that, and would not carry the 444 for that purpose.

So, I feel that as the SG 444 is set up, the power it produces, and the type of hunting I would do with it, that it is a 200 yard rifle. There are some on here that use lighter bullets, higher power scopes, etc, and have the ability to extend that range well beyond the range that I would be confident with for the purposes that I have built my SG 444...................and, if I am hunting and see game beyond my set maximum distance with the SG 444.....I just have to get closer. The hunter needs not only to have "shooting" skills, but "hunting" skills as well.
 
#4 ·
Lots of people compare the 444 to many cartridges, 99.99999% of the time they are comparing bullet energy/cartridge power Not which is better at long range shooting!

The 444 is IMHO only a Short range cartridge, the large diameter bullet and flat nose design, does not make for a long range proposition, to me the 444 is about a 200yard at best cartridge, for my own personal range it's more on the less then 150yard range. That because where I hunt with a 444 you will not get a shot longer then 200 yards. Everyone's mileage varies.
 
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#5 ·
I have no problem using the 444 out to 200 yards. I practice with mine at 200 yards regulary, and have full confidence in taking deer sized game at that distance.
 
#9 ·
I have no problem using the 444 out to 200 yards. I practice with mine at 200 yards regulary, and have full confidence in taking deer sized game at that distance.
Agree with that Hal.... My new favorite load gets topped off with the Hornady 265gr. love that round and I trust it to 200....

1895gunner
 
#6 ·
A Postell style bullet, 350 to 380 grains might be fun to play with.
Trajectory would still be rainbow-like, but better than a flat nose.
Maybe not the best set up for shooting things at 5-600 yards, but
I wouldn't want them falling around me.
 
#7 ·
Guys, I don't know if it's the season or the change in software for this site. I can believe we are having a good, knowledge based, civil discussion because of the good people who come around. All opinions aren't the same as it should be! But, I appreciate your courteous responses. On so many boards where I mostly lurk, the morons prevent an intelligent discussion. At my skill level even with a good scope, my .444 is a 150-200 yd gun for humane kills. But I'd lob 'em out there if that's what it took to escape. I'd leave the spray and to others while I found a defensive place. I do not currently plan on shooting my .444 out to 4-500 with any frequency, but I wouldn't mind stirring up a little dirt every now and then if just for smiles. rimrock There's some entertainment value built into even some of my posts, but talk is cheap.
 
#8 ·
There are shooters that can lob foster 12 gauge slugs from smoothbore barrels out to 200 yards and cleaning take big game. It's easier with a 300 magnum. Can you do it with a 444 out to 500 yards?, absolutely, if u know how to shoot and put in the time to practice range estimation and long range shooting. Don't let anybody tell u that u can't do something. It's up to u, how badly u want it.
 
#10 ·
I don't see why it couldn't be a long range gun, I mean the bp guys shoot out to a 1000 yds with .45 cal. I guess the question should be what do you want to due at that range. Hitting steel plates is different than killing critters. If you can hit regularly at 200 yds then 300yds should be possible. In my mind 400yds and beyond is where things get harder. S.
 
#11 ·
Speaking solely for myself, I have a self imposed limit of 250yds MAX; but prefer 200yds or less. Even if you could hit a Bear, Deer, or Elk at 1000yds; what would be the fps/fpe at that distance? How many degrees of elevation would be needed shooting that far?
 
#12 ·
Dawei, re-read the post Flat Top referenced here. For everyone, Buffalo were damn near wiped off the continent by shooters using blackpowder bigbore rifles with heavy bullets. You can do the same thing today with the 444. The cartridge is capable, most shooters are not. If you believe other-wise, please get yourself a room in Forsyth Montana, 75 miles east of here, and come watch the shooters at the Quigley match over Fathers Day weekend.:congrats: While there may not be a 444 on the firing line, it will be bracketed by cartridges with bores of .40 to .458. DP
 
#13 ·
"Several confederate snipers hit British commanders at 3-400 yds with BP and round balls." I agree with the sentiment and believe the 444 can be used at long range with practice, however I don't remember the Army of the CSA shooting Brits. I'm pretty sure that was done by the colonists almost 100 years earlier.
 
#16 · (Edited)
"Several confederate snipers hit British commanders at 3-400 yds with BP and round balls." I agree with the sentiment and believe the 444 can be used at long range with practice, however I don't remember the Army of the CSA shooting Brits. I'm pretty sure that was done by the colonists almost 100 years earlier.
The Confederates did not fight the British. George Washington and the Continental Army fought the British from 04/18/1775 - 11/23/1783 in the American Revolution. The Confederates fought the US Army during the Civil War 04/12/1861 - 04/09/1865. Last shot fired was on 06/12/1865.
 
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#14 ·
It took several hours for most buffalo to die, any cartridge can be a long range ordeal, morals and ethics are standards in taking any game today!

I could care less how far one shoots at game animals, as long as they are proficient at it!
 
#15 ·
:top: Placement is reality IMO.

These big bores have the smack down at close range. The bullet drops like a rock after 200 yds too, as they are not aerodynamic.
The Sandy hook test fascinate me, because the bullet was stable at 3500 yds:biggrin: and penetration was more than enough :top:
another element is the shooter...you can est. range and account for it. Practice is the key to long range...IMO we don't practice and we don't do the math... so the mindset is fast and flat (reduces math and big scopes shorten the range):hmmmm:
I have little interest in wounding a bear at long range and then getting to find that out in the thick cover he will retreat to:ahhhhh:My last bear went 30-40 yds into brush I saw her at 10 yds (dead)...I think close up I would rather make a bad frontal shot on a charging bear with a big gun than to hit him with a 243 55gr hp at 4,000fps:ahhhhh:but the 243 will smack a coyote down at long range with less error in tajectory:biggrin:
 
#18 · (Edited)
I fess up, pretty sure confederates snipers didn't harm the British. But, the fact remains American snipers did serious morale damage to the Brits, and southern snipers had some impact against the north. Likewise, northerners hit southerners from long range. Highly skilled marksmen making long guns of their time perform well. same thought process I sought to convey in the OP.

rimrock
 
#19 ·
rimrock; If you really want to become proficient at long range shooting you need to start competing....Benchrest will teach you how to read "conditions" , and National Match will teach you the "off hand" skills. I was a competitive BR shooter for many years, and I learned how to shoot! I have taken ground hogs, crow, and coyote at over 500 yards (not with a 444 Marlin though!!!!!).
 
#20 ·
If u want to shoot the biggest bear that ever lived, the 444 with 240grn. loads will work at 400 yards and beyond. If u can shoot and practice at that distance, Use enough gun crap sells a lot of new rifles, but they ain't really neccesary. Merry Christmas to all.
 
#21 ·
The 444 will do the job for quite a distance. My motto for hunting is why did you have to shoot at 350 yards, couldn't you sneak up a little closer? :biggrin: My longest big game shot for my 444 was 175 yards and 200 yards was my limit. Now my limit is maybe a 150 yards and 100 suits me better for killing shots. I once backpack hunted the Rockies but now I'm capable of a short sneak or ambush a lot closer to my Jeep.

I am a dedicated peep user and feel I could hit a tactical target with my 444 to 350 yards. Years ago I practiced a lot across canyons at rocks with my 444. But I couldn't put a sporting group together at that range. A seasoned rifleman with a scoped 444 could stretch the range of the 444 for truly bragging distance.

One thing I really like about big bore mid-speed bullets is the plummeting drop after normal shooting ranges. I want my bullet in the dirt as soon as possible if I miss. Far too many new hunters do not consider the down range implications when they choose rifles or pull the trigger. If a guy trained for the ballistics properly the 444 would outshine the 308 at long range with equal hits in my uneducated opinion. I know the rifle cartridge combo is accuracy adequate if tuned. The terminal performance starts with a .430 hole and it never gets smaller, and 265 plus grains will push a good way at the reduced speeds. If it was me I'd want a long hard cast bullet of 350 grains minimum, fast rifling twist, and top velocity in a scoped rifle. Anyone good at hunting at long range with a 444 would be an outstanding rifleman.
 
#23 · (Edited by Moderator)
I certainly hope to not be outta line here, nor do I wish to post this in the wrong thread. But reading Canuck Bob's post about getting closer to your game has prompted me to post this. Men and horses of 150 years ago were build of a different stuff that modern man is built from. We are wimps, today's horses are wimps. Grap a book by a well know Canadian writer: Pierre Berton, the book is called "the Klondike". One of the most incredible books you'll ever read about man's endurance and their horses. Another that you might like is called: The rancher takes a wife. It'll open your eyes as to how mankind has desolved into the bunch of wimps that we now are with our iPhones, GPS's and the likes. Just an idea as to how men back then dealt with the so called antique caliber and guns at their disposal and still managed to survive.
 
#24 ·
gitrdun; Hey speak for yourself!!!! I aint no woosy!!! I eat a bowl o' nails every morning for breakfast and wear a rattlesnake for a tie...and I aint got one horse, I got a hunderd and ten, fire breathin', horses between my legs......and, you talk about endurance, why heck, I can clean the house, do the laundry, and STILL have dinner ready for wifey when she gets home from work. I KNOW how to survive..... keep wifey happy and she wont kill me!!!!:biggrin:
 
#25 ·
I agree with what most seem to be saying, which is that in the proper hands, the 444 is capable of making shots 3 or 4 times farther than we typically think.

I personally know a lot of guys who have put bullets in human targets overseas at 800 yards. I know the guy who thus far has the longest shot on record for the 308 in Iraq, about 1400 yards. Like Billy Dixon's 1400 yard shot (which was at a group of mounted Indians, not a single Indian--ie he was shooting at a very large target)--it was a bit of a wing and a prayer, his scope was maxed for elevation and he was still holding over several mils for both windage and elevation. And he himself doubts he would make the shot again, if paid money.

At any rate, most of us are not the riflemen we could be. A 168 grain 308 at 525 or so yards--an easy shot for any serious long range rifleman--drops about the same as a 265 grain 444 at 400 yards (58 inches give or take, according to my calculator)

And the windage (which is what most of us can't judge--we can all pull out our laser range finders and get the range in about 2 seconds these days) you simply need practice with.

So, yup, the round is up to it. And it will have killing power long, long after most of us have exhausted our skills at getting it into the proper target.
 
#26 ·
Sighting: Most folks sight their big bores at 100 yards, I would guess...that is the "standard" these days. your ability to hit something at long range is determined by you ability to "sight" the target. My 444's are for what I would consider short range shooting....my limit being 200 yards or so. When I sight my SG 444 with the 300 grain bullet at 2500 fps, my "zero" is at 150 yards. For 200 yard shooting at deer or larger game, I find this ideal. Here is the trajectory table with that load, and the 150 yard zero:

0 = -0.500
25 = +0.640
50 = +1.390
75 = +1.740
100 = +1.660
125 = +1.090
150 = Zero
175 = -1.650
200 = -3.910

This gives me an "Over All Trajectory" of 5.650"...........or, "minute of deer" out to 200 yards. Off of the spot on the deer I want to hit, I just hold a tad low up to dead on at 150 yards, or a tad high from 175 to 200 yards or so....but, my cross hairs are still "on the target", so, judging "drop" or trajectory is not an issue. Regardless, the bullet is going to go into a 5 .650 area (about the size of a coffee saucer) out to 200 yards.....or, its just about a dead on shot to 200 yards.

I would think, that if someone would want to shoot the 444 at longer ranges that the "zero" would have to be moved down range a bit.....and remember, its always easier to judge distance and hold over....or hold under as the case may be, at closer ranges rather than longer ranges.

Just food for thought.
 
#29 · (Edited)
I sight in my 30/30 and my 444SS (22" barrel) to be dead on at 100yds. My 1966 444 (24" barrel) is sighted to a 150yd zero however. I use my 30/30 as my deer rifle and my 444SS as my Bear rifle. I use a Cast Boolit handload for Bear. In my other longer barrel 444 I use my Hornady® a 265gr FP handload for elk. With my 30/30 200yds is the absolute max range I feel comfortable shooting. Beyond that distance, the 30/30 drops below a 1000fpe so I don't stretch it. I am comfortable shooting all the way to 300yds with either 444 with both handloads. The 265gr Hornady® load still has 1300fpe at that distance.
 
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