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  1. #1
    Tenderfoot
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    444 ballistics compared to 405 winchester

    I registered on this site to ask a question to see if anyone knew the difference in velocities between the Hornady "lite Magnum" 265 grain flatpoint and the new 265 grain whiz-bang pointy bullet.

    If the flatpoint actually developed more velocity, it would be the better load since if I wanted to snipe at game at long range I'd use a 338 win or 375 H&H or ewven a plain old 30-06 and not a 444.

    But as it turns out, the short, stubby, pointy bullet develops the same velocity as the flatpoint and midway has the pointy ones on sale so I'll go with a box of those just to have some factory ammo on hand even if they are loaded with relatively short, stubby pistol-weight bullets. But still, 265 graiuns is better than 240.

    But the very best load for the 444 in my opinion, is a reload that duplicates the exact 405 winchester ballistics by producing 2100 fps with a 300 grain bullet. This load puts the "brush gun" cartridge into the "big game" catagory. these loads are also available as custom ammo from cor-bon and buffalo bore for people who understand ballistics but don't reload.

    This load has never been offered commercially because the shooting public is obsessed with velocity and 2100 fps doesnt' sound as impressive as the 2400 fps that you get out of the 444 by loading a dinky little pistol bullet in it.

    However to achieve the 2100 fps with the 300 grain bullet, there are only certain powders that will accomplish this out of a 22 inch barrel and even then special techniques are needed to get enough powder in the case.

    One of those powders is H-322 and the technique is to use an 18 inch drop tube. then you can seat either the 300 grain hornady XTP or the Speer gold dot to the cannalure for the correct OAL and put a good roll crimp on it.

    This load will kill some really big anmimals really dead, and addditionaly will not kill any smaller animals TOO dead.

    I have installed a pachmayer decellerator shotgun pad on my pre-lawyer-mandated safety 22 inch 444S and recoil with the 300 grain max load is nowhere near as uncomfortable as some of the stout 45-70 loads I've tried in other marlins in that chambering.

  2. #2
    Gunfighter
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    444 ballistics compared to 405 winchester

    Having both the 405 and the 444.
    Hornadys factory load for the 405 wcf is 2200 fps with a 300 gr bullet.
    If handloaded, 2400 fps is reachable within safe pressure limits.

    It's easy to duplicate the factory 405 load with the 444.
    Just take Speer #13 manual.
    55.5 grs Hodgdon H335 behind Speer 300 gr Uni-Cor for 2211 fps.

    But 2400 fps with a 300 gr bullet in the 444 Marlin within safe pressure limits, it's absolutly impossible.

    But, for longer range, take a look at Vihtavuori powders.
    www.vihtavuori.fi

    They list Hornadys 265 grs bullet to over 2400 fps with VV N120 and VV N130.
    And that is out of a 22 in barrel, within safe pressure limit.
    Run that load trough a ballistic calculator and look at the trajectory.
    Impressive!!

  3. #3
    Tenderfoot
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    444 ballistics compared to 405 winchester

    For longer range, I'll use a model 70 winchester Alaskan with a 26 inch barrel in .338 win mag or else the new Ruger #1 with a custom 27 inch barrel in 6.5 Swede that I'm having made for me by E. Arthur Brown Company, Inc. 650 County Road 40 NW, Garfield, MN 56332. It will feature a Hicks #1 Accurizer, the Kepplinger Single Set Trigger, and a Mould's Speed Hammer. -- should be good out to 800 yards at least using Sierra match king or game king 140 grain projectiles.

    But to me, "hunting" is about stalking the game up as close as you can get, not sniping at long distances. No offense to all you snipers out there, though.

    Also my point is not that the 444 is "better" (more frontal area 43 vs 40) or even just as good as the 405 when both are loaded to their ultimate potential. My point is that the 444 is loaded to it's ultimate potential when using a 300 grain bullet and that lighter bullets at higher velocities are simply a trade-off of diminishing returns.

  4. #4
    Deadeye
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    444 ballistics compared to 405 winchester

    I'd do your own chrono test on both 444 lite mag and the LE. The LE did not come close to matching the Lite Mag for me by [if I remember right] about 150' fps slower. We ran them through 3 different guns. 2 ballard and 1 MG. The Micro Groove 1:38 twist would not stabilize the LE. In one box of 20 I also had 2 low velocity duds. I sent mine back to Hornady and they replaced it with lite mag. Good luck, Rick

  5. #5
    Site Contributor Contributing Member
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    Re: 444 ballistics compared to 405 winchester

    Quote Originally Posted by ronyo
    But as it turns out, the short, stubby, pointy bullet develops the same velocity as the flatpoint and midway has the pointy ones on sale so I'll go with a box of those just to have some factory ammo on hand even if they are loaded with relatively short, stubby pistol-weight bullets. But still, 265 graiuns is better than 240.
    You would do well to look at Midsouth's ammo prices, their regular prices usually beat Midway's sale prices, and their shipping isn't near as high ta boot.

    .444 Ammo
    "Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" - Mark Twain

    H&R Centerfire Rifle Forum

  6. #6
    repentant
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    444 ballistics compared to 405 winchester

    (more frontal area 43 vs 40)
    .429" vs .411" to be more accurate. The 444 Marlin has 9 percent more frontal area than the 405 Winchester, whereas the 45-70 has 14 percent more frontal area than the 444 Marlin.

  7. #7
    Gunfighter
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    444 ballistics compared to 405 winchester

    The frontal area vs the woundchannel is depending on impact velocity.

    I have killed moose with LEE's 310 RF, ( meplat 80% ), TLC432-300 RF, (72% meplat ) and TLC432-285-RF, ( allso 72% meplat )
    I dont know the correct B.C of the LEE 310 RF and the TLC432-285-RF bullets, but the TLC432-300-RF has an estimated B.C of .3144.

    If I dont remember wrong, the LEE bullet was 318 grs out of ww with lube and GC, the TLC432-285-RF was 270 grs out of 60/40 ww and lino, and the TLC432-300-RF was 305 grs out of ww.
    All were waterquenched.

    The 318 grs bullet was loaded to around 2150 fps, ( I think ops: ), the 305 gr RD was around 2200 fps, and the 270 gr RD was 2346 fps.

    The TLC432-285-RF is the bullet that have made the biggest wound channel's in all the moose I have killed with theese bullets.
    And it is not only one moose with each bullet.

    So, do I think that the meplat make big differense, well trough the skin maby, but not after that.

    Here is a picture of a cow moose shot with a 270 gr RD bullet, ( TLC432-285-RF )
    Take a look at the exit wound.



    Ok, just kidding, that is a moose that was wounded in a car exident, and my dog and I tracked her up and realesed her from her pain.

  8. #8
    Gunfighter
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    444 ballistics compared to 405 winchester

    This is a entrance wound of a 265 grs Hornady bullet loaded to around 2400 fps.
    Small meplat, high velocity, big hole.
    My father shot this cow, heartshot.





  9. #9
    Tinhorn
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    444 ballistics compared to 405 winchester

    405 WCF you get reason with the 265 gr bullet .Next pictures happen me last year when l was shooting a roe deer running very fast .l don't take care of a tree in front (as big as a bottle of red wine !!! ) and the bullet cross this tree and kill the roe deer 30 meter after ...


    C'est l'heure ou les esprits
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    Taiaut ! Vloo! Hennissements aigus,
    Claquements des fouets,mugissements des cors. Et les abois, et les cris, et les éclats de rire
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  10. #10
    Really Short Fuse Administrator
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    444 ballistics compared to 405 winchester

    ronyo,

    Do you live in Wisconsin?

    Dave
    http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v354/vtdw1/
    MO Member #77


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