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Long Range 30-30???

20K views 41 replies 27 participants last post by  windy 
#1 ·
Wrote this little article last year. Never got used in the local club newsletter. It might be of interest to some of you who reload.


Long-Range 30-30?



Hornady is offering 30-30 ammo called LeverEvolution. They also supply the FTX bullets used in that ammo and Hodgdon offers the LeverEvolution powder. My conclusions, after some testing with a 50 year-old Marlin lever rifle, are that you BUY that ammo and/or components for guns like that you may shoot. It is a definite improvement in energy, trajectory and possibly accuracy.

A major problem with the popular 30-30 is tubular magazine. Since each shell is pushed on the primer by the shell behind, that bullet head has got to be flat. You don’t want a primer set off while loading or under recoil because of a pointed bullet pushing on a primer. Flat bullets shoot like a parachute. You need pointed bullets to cut through the air if you’re going to hold speed and energy. Hornady came up with a solution.

The FTX Hornady bullet has a spongy, plastic tip that literally squishes when pushed on primers in a tube magazine. That’s unlike other plastic-tipped bullets marketed for years with hard tips. Bullets like the SST and Ballistic Tips are NOT soft-tipped and just might be a problem in tubular magazines.

The other issue is powder type. Most lever rifles from Winchester and Marlin used 20” barrels or sometimes even shorter. For reloaders, old IMR 4064, 3031 and 4895 were pretty much all that could be used to get velocity from the short barrel. Now Hornady, with Hodgdon, came out with a new ball powder called LeverRevolution. That’s the name Hornady gave to their new ammo and the name Hodgdon is using on the powder. You can now either buy complete ammunition for your lever guns or make your own.

It sure is a strange feeling to load tubular magazines with pointed bullets. Actually it was kind of scary when I first did it. Decades of trepidation are hard to overcome. Was given 5 complete factory rounds to try. No chronograph then so I don’t know their actual speed. Do know they grouped under 2” at 100 yards and shot a couple inches lower than my old loads. Felt strong and that prompted the exploration.

First thing I tried was just switching to the FTX bullets. Claims are for a high ballistic coefficient and good down-range performance. They sure look more aerodynamic than older flat points. Did some chronographing and found that IMR 4895 worked will with these new bullets. Decent groups and consistent velocity around 2,200 fps. showed the bullets worked well. My drop tests at 200 and 300 yards showed inches of drop LESS than the flat points.

During the past year, Hodgdon started selling the LeverEvolution powder. Got some to see if that was the final link to real improvement.

On the powder can and from Hodgdon published load data for the 160 FTX bullet in 30-30, there is listed a 35.5 grain max load. I started at 32 grains and immediately got velocity MORE than the max 2200fps loads I could get with the same bullet and Hodgdon 4895.

At 34 and 35 grains of the LVR powder, I was choreographing over 2,400 fps and, now get this, showing groups UNDER 1” at 100 yards. This is from an old Marlin lever with 20” barrel and an old 2-7 Leupold. What a shock.

At the listed max load of 35.5 grains there were no pressure signs in my gun. Velocity was up to 2,450 fps and the one group I shot with it opened a bit.

In the 35 grain range my 30-30 now has velocity and energy like a typical 300 Savage. We’re talking around a TON of energy at the muzzle. That’s not far below a 308. Whoa! Now what will it do?

Sighted things in at 100 yards about 2” high. At 200 yards it hit only an inch or two low. Man that means you can literally hold right on to that range. That’s better than what the gun used to do with those flat point bullets. Shot pretty nice groups at that range also.

300 yards was a bit different. I did hit the paper 4 out of 5 times. Problem was I did not hold high enough to center the shots on the target I used. All hits were near the bottom of the paper with one missing. My guesstimate is these FTX bullets hit around 15” low. Looked like “minute of deer” to me as the shots were spaced maybe 8” apart. Simple drop adjustment, and more ammo to test, would probably show nicely-centered results.

Still had 5 shells left to test. There’s that bank at 450 yards. Held where the crosshair gets thick to make a close hit on the bank. Now what about those 560 yard gongs?

This took some thinking and experience. At a 7 moa gap to the thick on the crosshair, I figured to double that distance down the crosshair would give me something in the 80” hold-over. Range Officer Mike does NOT want you to do this. The club does not want people to wildly shoot at the long-range targets without some experience. I have some experience and got the help of two nearby shooters to spot for me.

First shot hit less than 2 ft. low. Next shot had the right height and just left in the wind. Two shells remaining and I nailed it. Spun that gong around and got cheers from others looking. Darn little 30-30 had hit the gong at 560 yards on it’s third try. Range Officer Skyles came running.

“What’s going on? You guys should not be having that much fun”.

Had one shell left. We all looked again and I just missed to the right. “Minute of Deer” from an old Marlin 30-30 carbine.

You can get that LeverEvolution ammo in 30-30, 32 Special, 35 Remington, 44 mag, 444 Rem and some other calibers. Bullets are available, as is the LeverEvolution powder for reloaders. Seems to be working for me. Now it’s time to use the combination for hunting and remind myself just how much fun and useful the old carbines can be.



LeverRevolution Powder and FTX bullets combine to make the 30-30 “new” again.


Which one is the pointed FTX bullet?



Future deer hunter at practice.



Score one for the FTX and LeverRevolution powder with this nice Gerogia 8 pt.
 
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#4 ·
No reason to crimp for a rifle that has little to no recoil.

Never measured the neck tension on my set-up for 30-30. It would be easy to do. Just measure the inside of the case mouth or outside and subtract the wall thickness.
Then compare that to the .308 bullet diameter. Most factory dies are set up with way too much neck crimp. I often have to anneal case necks to achieve consistant tension. That is always done for the target rifles I use in 1,000 yard competition.

Only guns I ever saw move a bullet during recoil were 44 mag ammo in a handgun and 45 Long Colt in one of my derringers. Most times there is at least .004" neck tension or more from a factory die. Not sure how that relates into ft. lbs. but you literally cannot move the bullet in the case neck. The biggest issue is leade and action length. I have tools to measure leade but did not do it for the "little" guns like this one. I just measured the OAL of the action and found the maximun length that would function. That will put me close to the leade for a minimum jump and, hopefully, the best accuracy.

That cannulure in a bullet is mostly for crimping the jacket into the lead core. It's NOT for crimping the case mouth into the bullet but it CAN be used for that.

Good question and I was happy to answer.
 
#5 ·
The reason for crimping levergun loads has nothing to do with the bullet coming out of the case. It has to do with the bullets getting pushed further in to the case by recoil plus magazine follower spring pressure.
 
#6 ·
I sighted in my older 336 with these Leverevolution 30-30 loads just a couple of months ago. That rifle REALLY liked that ammo! I am anxious to see how it will perform on deer.
 
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#9 ·
Well aware of that issue with pushing bullets into the magazine tube and neglected to address that issue in my answer/report.

I have never seen a problem through literally thousands of rounds loaded and fired. Actually, feel that spring. It's not that hard to actually compress. I guess I could do a test to see just what kind of ft. lbs pressure is required to move a bullet into one of my necks. Bet it's way, way higher than needed to load a full tube. That would make a good test and not one I ever saw done. I have digital scales that might do the job.

Food for thought but the loading has never, remotely been an issue for me. Most of the pressure is getting that darn shell lined up straight into the tube. As to recoil...I regularly shoot 338 and 375 mag. rifles that I load for. Never crimped and never had an issue there either. The 30-30 literally has "no recoil" compared to them so...you be the judge.
 
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#23 ·
I guess I could do a test to see just what kind of ft. lbs pressure is required to move a bullet into one of my necks. Bet it's way, way higher than needed to load a full tube. That would make a good test and not one I ever saw done. I have digital scales that might do the job.
I tested by adding weight directly onto a cartridge.



I've never had an issue with uncrimped cartridges in a tube magazine... now dropping them is a different story.

I also have been shooting the FTX bullets at long range.

 
#11 ·
Did a test. I will put that answer on another post titled ...Had To Test Bullet Seating Pressure.

Quick answer here is it's mostly over 70 lbs and I could not press any harder. You are NOT going to push that bullet IN. I did not test OUT pressure.
 
#13 ·
You are right there. Properly placed most bullets today do the job.

I was just curious how that pointed LRV profile compared at longer ranges. Heh - hit a 4" gong at 565 yards and it's WAY WAY flatter in trajectory than the typical flat or rounded bullets used in "tube" guns.
 
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#14 ·
I did a test today, sort of. I had two of mine out to play and the 62 30-30 microgroove was dead on with 170 Coreloct and 170 Winchester but 15inches high with Hornady LE. The 54 .35 Texan was Dead on with 200 grain Handloads (simular to Coreloct) and was 5 inches high with 200 grain Hornady LE. I really like the LE rounds, but have found that I have to sight in differently for them on every rifle. To me this is an indicator of less bullet drop over the same distance. That equals better acuracy to me.
 
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#16 ·
Hey Captain,
Thanks for your post. I agree with your findings. I've used the gummy tips for several years in both my .30-30 XLR and .45-70 1895 GS. Very accurate, flat shooting, hard hitting ammo. :tee:
 
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#19 ·
Great article, Captain. You'll be another Enabler for us here on the forum.
 
#20 ·
To tell the truth If I wanted to turn my 30/30 into a long range rifle I would be using 150 or 165 grain Nozler ballistic tips.I would load them singly or one in the Tube and load them as close to the lands as possible.That being said if I need to shoot long range I use my 270WSM,300WSM,338Win.Mag or my 257 Weatherby Mag,right tool for the job.I use my levers for hunting the swamps here in Wisconsin or Black Timber for Elk where 50 to 100 yds is a long shot and having a fast handling multi shot rifles is the right tool for the job.
 
#21 ·
If I wanted to shoot long range I would load two 168 A-Max bullets at a time, but as far as factory ammo, and having a tube full of rounds hornady's bullet design is the way to go. If I really wanted to shoot far I would load some 208 A-max in 300 rum, or 140 a-max in 6.5-06, but yes, there are better options for long range.

-Kilroy
 
#22 ·
Don't find many times you need that much range for deer in Michigan, but then I done a more than average shot last November. 30-30 336RC, 125gn sierra flat point hollow point. 36gns of W748 here is a pic of the bullets impact point in the background is my blind. One round through the lungs. The blind is 8 feet long circled in red.

Tried the LE bullets in the same gun, I was not impressed with the results. Like you I would not seat them to the crimp groove I did not like the idea of having the bullet dip beyond the shoulder when seated. My preference for bullets in the pointed variety for a 30-30 would be the Speer 130gn HP with one in the chamber and one in the tube. I did get good groups with the LEs in my hand loads.
 

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#24 ·
Hey Win94,

Was hoping you would weigh in on this thread. Keep raising the bar.

Later, Mark
 
#26 ·
Win 94...Hello. Thanks for sharing your information videos. I sure appreciated the opportunity to see them.

Had to watch a few times to see that you dropped that 30-06 case on it's base. Erroneously thought you were dropping it on the tip to drive it in and maybe smashing the exposed lead to change the length. It's tough to see at first. Best seating depth measurement would be to use a bullet comparator ogive tool, either from Sinclair or Hornady.

You made no mention of brass thickness and how much the die you used actually sized that neck. Unless you measure those issues there's no way to figure just what the neck tension actually is on that bullet. That's a major issue to consider along with brass hardness.

Enjoyed both videos. Sure surprised me when it took me 60 lbs to move .35" engagement with only .003" interference fit and then could not move those with just .001" to .002" more interference fit. Bet you were surprised when you saw yours hold 40lbs. Thanks goodness rifles under recoil are not as hard as the stop on your drop or an inertia puller. My conclusions on crimping might be different than yours but we are all different people. Crimp all you want but know that can create different neck tensions that usually harms accuracy.

You want to harm accuracy more...Check the run-out of 30-30 ammo, with the long necks and thin brass, twisted sideways jammed into that magazine gate. There's much to be said for single shot and that's another topic for possible future examination.

As for actually killing at "long range", the 30-30 poops out energy wise in my 2400fps 160FTX loads at 300 yards. That's as far as it can deliver 1,000 foot lbs of energy. That's my minimum energy requirement to kill deer effectively.

For long range hunting I use a 338 Win Mag that delivers more than a 1,000 ft. lbs at over 1,000 yards. My main three are a 270 Win, a 7mm Rem Mag and a 260 Ackley Improved. All deliver that 1,000 ft. lbs just OVER 700 yards. All four of them are custom/modified rifles I constantly test at those ranges and all but one have made multiple kills at "long range". One I recently built just needs some hunting time coming up this Fall.
 
#30 ·
I've been loading S/P bullets in the model 94 Winchester for years. I just load one in the chamber and one in the tube. If I was going hunting for big game with one I would load the Barnes X bullets in 150 to 160 gr and have at it. I'm not a big fan of Hornady since I had one of their 180 gr 30 cal bullets blow up on an elk!!!!Now I use nothing but the Barnes X bullets on anything I want to hunt. FRJ
 
#31 ·
More great comments.

Setback on calibers OTHER THAN 30-30 may be an issue. I also have seen it. Do not know what kind of interference fit those straight wall cases actually have. Normally the bullets are heavy. That means high inertia. Also those bullets are little "stubs". That means they have shorter contact area with the case.

All those factors come to me. Have no clue on what they are but have seen setback or "pullout" on some straight-walled calibers under some conditions. Have never seen it with cartridges like the 30-30. My guess is the 32 Special and 35 Remington in 336's would be the same. Never tested them. Only tested the 30-30.
 
#32 ·
Great article and I might try not crimping for my 30-30 hand load LE. the next time at the range. I usually don't crimp rounds that I'm using for target shooting because I breech load at the range. I'll full the tube up and fire and check the C.O.L. on the next round in line just out of curiosity. Thanks for your troubles.

T:biggrin:NY
 
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