Marlin Firearms Forum banner

Long Range 30-30???

20K views 41 replies 27 participants last post by  windy 
#1 ·
Wrote this little article last year. Never got used in the local club newsletter. It might be of interest to some of you who reload.


Long-Range 30-30?



Hornady is offering 30-30 ammo called LeverEvolution. They also supply the FTX bullets used in that ammo and Hodgdon offers the LeverEvolution powder. My conclusions, after some testing with a 50 year-old Marlin lever rifle, are that you BUY that ammo and/or components for guns like that you may shoot. It is a definite improvement in energy, trajectory and possibly accuracy.

A major problem with the popular 30-30 is tubular magazine. Since each shell is pushed on the primer by the shell behind, that bullet head has got to be flat. You don’t want a primer set off while loading or under recoil because of a pointed bullet pushing on a primer. Flat bullets shoot like a parachute. You need pointed bullets to cut through the air if you’re going to hold speed and energy. Hornady came up with a solution.

The FTX Hornady bullet has a spongy, plastic tip that literally squishes when pushed on primers in a tube magazine. That’s unlike other plastic-tipped bullets marketed for years with hard tips. Bullets like the SST and Ballistic Tips are NOT soft-tipped and just might be a problem in tubular magazines.

The other issue is powder type. Most lever rifles from Winchester and Marlin used 20” barrels or sometimes even shorter. For reloaders, old IMR 4064, 3031 and 4895 were pretty much all that could be used to get velocity from the short barrel. Now Hornady, with Hodgdon, came out with a new ball powder called LeverRevolution. That’s the name Hornady gave to their new ammo and the name Hodgdon is using on the powder. You can now either buy complete ammunition for your lever guns or make your own.

It sure is a strange feeling to load tubular magazines with pointed bullets. Actually it was kind of scary when I first did it. Decades of trepidation are hard to overcome. Was given 5 complete factory rounds to try. No chronograph then so I don’t know their actual speed. Do know they grouped under 2” at 100 yards and shot a couple inches lower than my old loads. Felt strong and that prompted the exploration.

First thing I tried was just switching to the FTX bullets. Claims are for a high ballistic coefficient and good down-range performance. They sure look more aerodynamic than older flat points. Did some chronographing and found that IMR 4895 worked will with these new bullets. Decent groups and consistent velocity around 2,200 fps. showed the bullets worked well. My drop tests at 200 and 300 yards showed inches of drop LESS than the flat points.

During the past year, Hodgdon started selling the LeverEvolution powder. Got some to see if that was the final link to real improvement.

On the powder can and from Hodgdon published load data for the 160 FTX bullet in 30-30, there is listed a 35.5 grain max load. I started at 32 grains and immediately got velocity MORE than the max 2200fps loads I could get with the same bullet and Hodgdon 4895.

At 34 and 35 grains of the LVR powder, I was choreographing over 2,400 fps and, now get this, showing groups UNDER 1” at 100 yards. This is from an old Marlin lever with 20” barrel and an old 2-7 Leupold. What a shock.

At the listed max load of 35.5 grains there were no pressure signs in my gun. Velocity was up to 2,450 fps and the one group I shot with it opened a bit.

In the 35 grain range my 30-30 now has velocity and energy like a typical 300 Savage. We’re talking around a TON of energy at the muzzle. That’s not far below a 308. Whoa! Now what will it do?

Sighted things in at 100 yards about 2” high. At 200 yards it hit only an inch or two low. Man that means you can literally hold right on to that range. That’s better than what the gun used to do with those flat point bullets. Shot pretty nice groups at that range also.

300 yards was a bit different. I did hit the paper 4 out of 5 times. Problem was I did not hold high enough to center the shots on the target I used. All hits were near the bottom of the paper with one missing. My guesstimate is these FTX bullets hit around 15” low. Looked like “minute of deer” to me as the shots were spaced maybe 8” apart. Simple drop adjustment, and more ammo to test, would probably show nicely-centered results.

Still had 5 shells left to test. There’s that bank at 450 yards. Held where the crosshair gets thick to make a close hit on the bank. Now what about those 560 yard gongs?

This took some thinking and experience. At a 7 moa gap to the thick on the crosshair, I figured to double that distance down the crosshair would give me something in the 80” hold-over. Range Officer Mike does NOT want you to do this. The club does not want people to wildly shoot at the long-range targets without some experience. I have some experience and got the help of two nearby shooters to spot for me.

First shot hit less than 2 ft. low. Next shot had the right height and just left in the wind. Two shells remaining and I nailed it. Spun that gong around and got cheers from others looking. Darn little 30-30 had hit the gong at 560 yards on it’s third try. Range Officer Skyles came running.

“What’s going on? You guys should not be having that much fun”.

Had one shell left. We all looked again and I just missed to the right. “Minute of Deer” from an old Marlin 30-30 carbine.

You can get that LeverEvolution ammo in 30-30, 32 Special, 35 Remington, 44 mag, 444 Rem and some other calibers. Bullets are available, as is the LeverEvolution powder for reloaders. Seems to be working for me. Now it’s time to use the combination for hunting and remind myself just how much fun and useful the old carbines can be.



LeverRevolution Powder and FTX bullets combine to make the 30-30 “new” again.


Which one is the pointed FTX bullet?



Future deer hunter at practice.



Score one for the FTX and LeverRevolution powder with this nice Gerogia 8 pt.
 
See less See more
4
#33 ·
I had a Winchester power chock for my 30-30 set dramatically. About 3mm from just being in the tube. Granted they where in there for about week. I guess these stuff happens.. Don't dare to shoot those set bullets though..

Edit: I mean power max not power chock..
 
#34 ·
I know this is an older thread but I have had 30/30 and 444 factory ammo set back simply from magazine pressure. My buddy had the same thing happen with his 30/30. After noticing it, I took a few rounds from the box and turned them upside down on my reloading bench and pushed. It didn't take a whole lot of pressure to make the cannelure completely disappear. This was Remington, Federal and a few Winchester rounds. The 444 was Remington.
 
#35 ·
http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/336/90749-had-test-bullet-seating-pressure-30-30-a.html

Strange that the factory ammo would have such low neck tension. I have no explanation for that except something, like case neck-wall thickness, factory sizing, bullet size (doubtful) or ??? is out. I would NOT push a loaded round onto a scale, as seen above in this link, to check. When I did this they were empty cases just carefully measured for wall thickness and sizing so I knew the interference measures.
 
#37 ·
This may be of interest to some...I found this somewheres on this forum awhile back. Decided to check and see just how close it really was. The round is a factory 170gr jacketed FP. Gun is a "64" Marlin w/20" barrel wearing a 4X Leupold.
50yds = +1 1/4"
100yds = +2 3/4"
150yds = +2"
200yds = -2 1/2"
250yds = -10"
Results: My findings were nearly identical as to what was posted. (within +/- 1/4" or so)

Now, I'll probably never shoot it past 150yds while hunting, but its good to know where that bullet will hit beyond that distance.
I did make a "cheat sheet" and taped it to the stock for future referance.
 
#39 ·
FWIW....I equipped my used 30-30 with a burris 2-7 ballistic plex. It's a perfect scope being a exceptionally clear 2-7x but has the added advantage of the ballistic hashmarks on the upright reticle. I found my gun really really liked the 150 grain 30-30 ballistic tip by nosler. It shoots them as well as a 5 shot 100 yds group of .77". Hogdons load of 34.0 H4895 has them doing 2350 over my chrono. I used the following chart to zero the gun 1.5" high. The hashmarks are as follows:
First hashmark 1.5MOA
2nd 4.29moa
3rd 7.2moa
top of post is 10.2moa

So you go to the chart and check the 2nd to the last column and find that you are point blank range all the way to 175yds.
using the first hashmark will have you -1" at 200yds
Using the 2nd will have you dead on at 250 yds.
Using the 3rd will have you about 1.4" high at 300 yds.
The day I shot my good group at 100 yds I put the 3rd hashmark on the 10" 300 yd gong and went 2 for 2.
Unfortunately someone showed up to shoot and I didn't want to slow him down by walking all the way to 300 to see how centered the hits were.
So, gotta head back and do some paper shooting and see how it works out.








Code:
Tabular trajectory data at Non-Std. Atmosphere
 Gunsite altitude : 1400 ft.
 Air density      : 0.077661 lb./ft³
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Gun / Ammunition : Browning Bar, .308 Win.
 Bullet           : .308, 150, CT BalSilTip 51150
 Bullet weight    : 150 grains or 9.72 Grams
 Muzzle velocity  : 2350 fps
 Crosswind speed  : 1 Mph 
 Ballistic Coefficient(s) (G1): 
 [EMAIL="C1=0.248@V>0"]C1=0.248@V>0[/EMAIL] fps;

 Optimum trajectory information : 
 Optimum sight-in range (X) = 152 Yds. 
 with max. ordinate above LOS at range (M)= 91 Yds.
 and max. point blank range (P)= 174 Yds.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Sight-in clicks, 1 click = 0.635 cm/100 yd. or 0.25 in/100 yd.
 Height of sight above bore axis = 3.81 cm or 1.50 inch
 Gun is zeroed-in at 150 yds,
 by sighting-in at level firing
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Range  Velo Time of  Energy   Path    Deflection    Total  Sight correction  Target
        city  flight            to    at crosswind    drop   for setting new   lead
                                LOS    of 1.0 Mph             zero range     33 fps
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
·Yards   fps     s    ft.lbs.   in.    in.     MOA     in.   Clicks     MOA     yds ·
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|    0  2350  0.0000   1839    -1.5    0.0   -----     0.0   ------    -----    0.00
|   10  2316  0.0129   1786    -0.9    0.0    0.02     0.0    +35.4    +8.44    0.14
|   20  2282  0.0260   1735    -0.3    0.0    0.04     0.1     +6.7    +1.59    0.28
|   30  2249  0.0393   1684    +0.1    0.0    0.06     0.3     -2.0    -0.48    0.43
|   40  2215  0.0528   1635    +0.6    0.0    0.07     0.5     -5.6    -1.35    0.58
|   50  2183  0.0665   1586    +0.9    0.0    0.09     0.8     -7.2    -1.73    0.73
|   60  2150  0.0804   1539    +1.2    0.1    0.11     1.2     -7.8    -1.87    0.88
|   70  2117  0.0945   1493    +1.4    0.1    0.12     1.7     -7.8    -1.87    1.03
|   80  2085  0.1088   1448    +1.5    0.1    0.14     2.2     -7.4    -1.77    1.19
M   90  2053  0.1232   1404    +1.5    0.1    0.16     2.8     -6.8    -1.62    1.35
|  100  2022  0.1379   1361    +1.5    0.2    0.17     3.5     -5.9    -1.42    1.51
|  110  1990  0.1527   1319    +1.4    0.2    0.19     4.3     -5.0    -1.18    1.67
|  120  1959  0.1676   1279    +1.2    0.3    0.20     5.1     -3.9    -0.93    1.83
|  130  1928  0.1827   1238    +0.9    0.3    0.22     6.0     -2.7    -0.65    2.00
|  140  1898  0.1983   1199    +0.5    0.3    0.24     7.1     -1.4    -0.34    2.17
X  150  1867  0.2142   1161     0.0    0.4    0.26     8.2      0.0     0.00    2.34
|  160  1838  0.2305   1125    -0.6    0.5    0.28     9.5     +1.5    +0.36    2.52
|  170  1808  0.2471   1089    -1.3    0.5    0.30    10.8     +3.1    +0.73    2.70
P  173  1800  0.2521   1078    -1.5    0.6    0.31    11.2     +3.6    +0.85    2.76
|  180  1779  0.2640   1054    -2.1    0.6    0.32    12.3     +4.7    +1.13    2.89
|  190  1751  0.2812   1021    -3.1    0.7    0.35    13.9     +6.4    +1.54    3.08
|  200  1722  0.2987    988    -4.1    0.8    0.37    15.6     +8.2    +1.96    3.27
|  210  1695  0.3165    956    -5.3    0.9    0.39    17.4    +10.1    +2.40    3.46
|  220  1667  0.3345    925    -6.6    1.0    0.41    19.3    +12.0    +2.85    3.66
|  230  1640  0.3528    896    -8.0    1.1    0.44    21.4    +13.9    +3.32    3.86
|  240  1613  0.3714    866    -9.5    1.2    0.46    23.6    +15.9    +3.79    4.06
|  250  1586  0.3902    838   -11.2    1.3    0.48    25.9    +17.9    +4.28    4.27
|  260  1560  0.4093    810   -13.0    1.4    0.51    28.3    +20.0    +4.77    4.48
|  270  1534  0.4286    784   -14.9    1.5    0.53    30.9    +22.1    +5.28    4.69
|  280  1508  0.4481    758   -17.0    1.6    0.55    33.6    +24.3    +5.79    4.90
|  290  1484  0.4678    733   -19.2    1.7    0.57    36.5    +26.5    +6.31    5.12
|  300  1459  0.4879    709   -21.5    1.9    0.59    39.5    +28.7    +6.85    5.34
|  310  1434  0.5086    685   -24.1    2.0    0.62    42.7    +31.1    +7.42    5.56
|  320  1411  0.5297    663   -26.8    2.2    0.64    46.0    +33.5    +8.00    5.79
|  330  1388  0.5512    642   -29.7    2.3    0.67    49.6    +36.0    +8.60    6.03
|  340  1366  0.5731    621   -32.9    2.5    0.69    53.4    +38.7    +9.23    6.27
|  350  1344  0.5954    602   -36.2    2.6    0.72    57.3    +41.3    +9.87    6.51
|  360  1323  0.6180    583   -39.7    2.8    0.75    61.5    +44.1   +10.52    6.76
|  370  1302  0.6409    564   -43.4    3.0    0.77    65.8    +46.9   +11.19    7.01
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
M = Peak vs. L.O.S, X = Set Zero, P = Max. Point Blank Range
Elevation above Angle of Site (0.0 deg.)  = 0.1031 deg.
 
#40 ·
Yep, right tool for the job...Lever action effective from 0 - 150yrds max, IMO. If I know that my prey is 150yrds Plus, I have a bolt action 300 Win Mag to do the job. Berger 210gr hunting VLD, Winchester case, R22 powder, a Remington 9 1/2 primer, and a velocity of 2450fps that hits like a ton of bricks. I know it hits bricks hard, last week end I took out the rifle and hit two solid 6"X6" concreat titles stacked behind each other at 300yards. Turned them to dust and fragments. :biggrin:
 
#41 ·
Kraky,

Had to thank you. Share the same experience many times. Bet I own close to 10 Blasistic Plex Burris scopes and mulitple mil-dot ones. Always figure out what you did at the top scope power. Than check it out at the range.

Here's the thing. Many of us have rifles better suited to longer range. Now if I'm out hunting with the Marlin 30-30 or 44 mag what do I do if there stands a real nice target, far out?

It's not practical to go back to the truck or camp or home and get another gun. Use what you brung and hope your preparation pulls the shot off cause...I'm gonna shoot.

Thanks for the comment. May we all be as prepared.
 
#42 ·
great article! from the threads i've read, i've not been too impressed with the terminal ballistics of the le projectile--expansion doesn't seem to be its high point--but the factory stuff shoots super groups in my ballard-grooved 32 special 336a (24" barrel). in my 35 rem, identical configuration, not quite as spectacular, but still better'n fair. i'm certainly gonna try reloading them, using the le powder or not, but i'm not sure i want to abandon core-locts just yet. i do know that placement gets nine points to caliber/bullet's one, so i might be getting too critical; wet-newspaper and ballistic gelatin tests don't match the difference a few inches of better accuracy will give me. still, you tell a marksman by the shots he makes; you tell a sportsman by the ones he passes up.
mind yer topknots!
windy
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top