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35 Rem- 220g. Speer Flat Point Best for close Black Bear?

8K views 39 replies 12 participants last post by  My3KidsDad 
#1 ·
Hi I am fairly new here. Just got my first black bear with my '52 35 rem. Shot him four times from 20 up to 50 yards before he finally stayed down. Recovered three bullets (200g. 35cal. Remington CoreLokts- the wrong kind as I discovered here in a bullet test post. I had purchased the 200g. pointed soft point bullets.. which may or may not be as robust as the flat point 200g. bullet.) Handloaded over 38.5g. of IMR4064, an accurate load in my gun.

Incidently, video of the hunt is available on the web at http://www.huntingfootage.com/ You will have to register to view but it only took me a minute or two to register myself. After registering page down to the Bear category and look for the "Alberta Bear - Full Length" video.

My partner, Bill "Preacher" Stock, makes videos for the outfitters here in Alberta and made a good one of our hunt. By the way,his bear head measured 24 and a half inches green. Both bears were taken on our first night- both weighed in near 400 lbs.

Anyway, we found that one bullet had mushroomed as we would want, one bullet had separated and lost it's core, and one bullet was recovered by my Taxidermist, Reg Parras, who called me and said I could reload it as it was in perfectly new condition. The fourth bullet was not recovered.

As this was a fairly big bear (-400 lbs.) and aggressive I have had hopes that the 220g. Speer may have better stopping down power at closer ranges. Have you had experience with the 220g. Speer Flat point with black bear at close range?
 
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#2 ·
First of all, you were lucky that you didn't get a multiple explosion in your mag tube using a pointed bullet. Use only flat/round nosed bullets in a tubluar magazine. Secondly, the Rem. 200gr. PSP-CL is designed for 35Win./35Whelen velocities, that's why you weren't getting good expansion/erratic performance in the lower velocity 35 Remington. Get yourself some of the Remington 200gr. round nose bullets that were designed to be safe in a tube mag., and to expand at 35 Rem. velocities. The good old Rem. 200gr. RN bullets have been bringing down black bears for decades and are well respected.

Tmygun :D
 
#3 ·
Tmygun said:
First of all, you were lucky that you didn't get a multiple explosion in your mag tube using a pointed bullet. Use only flat/round nosed bullets in a tubluar magazine. Secondly, the Rem. 200gr. PSP-CL is designed for 35Win./35Whelen velocities, that's why you weren't getting good expansion/erratic performance in the lower velocity 35 Remington. Get yourself some of the Remington 200gr. round nose bullets that were designed to be safe in a tube mag., and to expand at 35 Rem. velocities. The good old Rem. 200gr. RN bullets have been bringing down black bears for decades and are well respected.

Tmygun :D
Hi Tmygun. Thanks for the warning. We went from excellent expansion in at least one bullet, to bullet core separation/failure in another, finally to one bullet failing to expand at all. Just wondering whether you find it interesting that a bullet you have related meant for Col. Whelen's cartridge (a fine 3006 wildcat cartridge by any measure) performed with such variance in my gun? I will be sure to buy the proper Core Lokt next time I buy it. I am still wondering whether anyone has had experience with the Speer 220g. bullet with black bear? At close range it (the Speer 220g.) should be a good choice as well?
 
#4 ·
This is just my 2 cents & barely that, as I am a novice with the .35 Remington, but I agree with TMYGUN about the best choice for this cartridge being the bullet Remington designed & built for it......Remington's 200GR RN Corelokt. It'll hit like a sledgehammer AND expand well at .35 Rem velocities, to do the internal damage it was designed to do to put the animal down quickly. If you search this site for .35 Remington's ballistics tests with various bullets & pics, you'll see why. His pics show the Speer 220grFP doesn't expand optimally at .35 Rem. velocities. Like I said, just my 2 cents, jd45
 
#5 ·
jd45 said:
This is just my 2 cents & barely that, as I am a novice with the .35 Remington, but I agree with TMYGUN about the best choice for this cartridge being the bullet Remington designed & built for it......Remington's 200GR RN Corelokt. It'll hit like a sledgehammer AND expand well at .35 Rem velocities, to do the internal damage it was designed to do to put the animal down quickly. If you search this site for .35 Remington's ballistics tests with various bullets & pics, you'll see why. His pics show the Speer 220grFP doesn't expand optimally at .35 Rem. velocities. Like I said, just my 2 cents, jd45
Thank you jd45 I appreciate your opinion. I think you are right in mentioning the above post. A lot of work went into that post an it should be a feather in this forum's hat to have it. Having read the ballistics post, I do not disagree with the Core Lokt being the best all round bullet for the 35 rem. From my own use of rem core lokt reloads, it is one of the most accurate bullets I have ever reloaded, at any price.

We could be more specific here regarding the intended use of the bullet. It will be at typically short range, something like 10-40 yards at most. At this range the 200g. bullets designed for 35 rem velocities will expand as intended. We simply wonder whether the larger 220g. bullet with the tougher construction, and deeper penetration thru (phonebooks), bone, muscle, etc. would be at bit more appropriate on bigger black bear at this short, exciting range. So considering this do you still think the Core Lokt has the edge at this range on black bear?
 
#6 ·
I don't know all the ifs, ands, or buts, but I shot a 420 pound bear with 170 grain Core-Lokt out of a 30-30, and one shot done the job. I have the utmost confidence that a 200 from the 35 will do the job quite well. Have killed a few deer with the 35, and CL bullets, and they worked very well. I also shoot Speer bullets now, and then, but the CL's are my main hunting bullet in 30-30, and 35.
 
#7 ·
"Dad": Congrats on your big bear! A chap who writes under the name "35Remington" has done extensive research on a whole bunch of projectiles for the .35 Remington--including the 220 gr. Speer. You can find his work either using Google or the search function of this site.

Your experience interests me. I'm due for a (Fall) bear license here in Michigan's Upper Peninsula. I've pretty well decided to use my .35 Rem. as well. My gun dotes on the 200 gr. CL pushed by a stout but not max. load of H4895. I'll probably use that load this Fall, but I've also picked up a box of the 220 gr. Speers to play with this Summer.
 
#8 ·
I think that the regular Rem. Core-lokt's will be just the ticket at any range with the 35 Rem. It was odd that you got core seperations with the Rem. 200gr. PSP's. As far as the expansion, maybe it was the close range that encouraged it. But it does go to show the erratic behavior of a bullet not designed for the right cartridge. I will say that the performance of those 200gr. PSP's would worry me in the 35 Whelen for anything larger than deer. Maybe a bad lot???
The Speer 220gr. was designed specifically for the 356Win. cartridge, so again, I don't think you will get optimum expansion at 35 Rem. velocities.
But just as jd45 said, the 200gr. Rem. Core-lokt bullet was designed from the very beginning for the 35 Rem., and those guys got it right darn near 100yrs. ago ;D.

Tmygun :D
 
#10 ·
I was planning on using the Remington 200gr RN ammo myself but also I was wondering if anyone has experience and/or tried the 220gr JFN from Buffalo Bore?
This has been recommended to me for hunting hogs and bear with my .35Rem on another site. Thoughts?
http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#35rem
 
#11 ·
What you do with the 220 Speer depends greatly on how it is loaded.

Now, first, let me say I haven't shot a black bear with these, so my definitions have to do with relative performance, and what I've observed on results with other game.

Someplace I've mentioned that if I was limited to using the 220 Speer at 1900 fps, where the manuals load it, I would suggest some other bullet, specifically the 200 Core - Lokt RN. More about that later, so bear with me.

First, let's nail a few things down that explain the bullet performance you received on the black bear you shot. The 200 grain Remington pointed bullet was designed for expansion at higher velocity in bigger cartridges, and the bullets you fired were likely on the low side of the expansion threshold upon impact. Nonexpanding bullets may tumble and lose their jacket - and I believe none of the pointed 200's (being more popular and bigger sellers in the high velocity .35's) have the true "Core-Lokt" feature, which is a thickened jacket midsection that prevents core slippage. The roundnose 200's do. Why? The Core - Lokt feature was discontinued in the pointed designs in many calibers due to budget cost cutting. Why? The dies wore out, likely, and were not replaced. The almighty dollar again. The RN dies are still marching on due to lower sales volume. Maybe the .35 Remington cartridge garnered a little extra attention from Remington since their name is on the case, as well.

The 200 RN Core-Lokt is tailor made for the .35 Remington, having the core retaining thick jacket midsection, as well as scallops and slits at the base of the scallops to provide expansion at nearly any practicable velocity. Never a bad choice.

Now, back to your pointy 200's. I'm guessing, but one of the bullets likely expanded a little, tumbled, and in going backward the larger diameter lead core snagged on tissue and was braked, allowing the jacket to slip off. Some may have tumbled without expanding, explaining their near perfect condition. Regardless, tissue damage may not have been all it could be. 38.5 of 4064, while no doubt a load that may work fine, probably didn't give the bullets what they needed in terms of speed.

Now, it's easy to relate lack of expansion to your problems with dropping the bear, but that very much has to do with what the first bullet fired did, and what it hit. If, say, the first bullet sailed through ribs and lungs on the first shot, it may well have not expanded - low threshold of expansion bullet, not much resistance. Subsequent shots at an energized, departing bear may have found his adrenaline up, and coursed through his body from odd (rear?) angles, hitting different things on the way. This may explain why some expanded (hit more resistance -solid muscle, paunch, bones) and some did not. You'd have to recreate where you found the bullets and entry holes to determine which bullet hit what, and in what order. Thus the variance in bullet performance - the tissue resistance is variable.

Now, would the 220 Speer have worked better? At Buffalo Bore or +P velocities, likely yes. A reasonable range shot (from your stand, perhaps? You did say 20 to 50 yards, very reasonable for the Speer) would likely have resulted in better expansion, more torn vital tissue, and the bear going down after running off a short distance - just what you want and expect.

A large black bear is one of the few animals where the 220 Speer can be reasonably put to work. For deer it is unneeded, and the Remington 200 Rn is likely better there, but it will work fine as I have proved to myself on whitetails.

I understand, but do not know for sure, that black bear muscle is dense stuff. Here the 220 Speer may be in its element due to the increased resistance. Should you wish to give it a try, I would recommend, at a minimum, using Hodgdon's good data with H4895 to obtain at least 2000+ fps, which is in the range of quite reasonable for any 35 Remington. For sound rifles with tight headspace, with brass well and correctly formed to the chamber, this can be exceeded somewhat.

Being that you are a handloader, I would not shell out the money for Buffalo Bore's stuff - I would make it myself (or yourself). IMR 4064 can work here as well, but you must be fine with powder compression. The amount needed may give you pause, and if it bothers you the shorter more compact H4895 will reduce this somewhat.

FWIW, this year I shot a big buck on the front of the left shoulder as he angled toward me at 30 yards. I recovered the bullet in the right ham. The bullet was the 200 Remington Core Lokt roundnose.

If you reread the bullet performance post, I mention that I found that the Speer 220 penetrated about 50-60 percent more than the proper Remington RN. Whether this is really needed on an unobstructed vital area shot is open to question. If, for whatever reason you must shoot the southwest end of a northbound bear the extra penetration may be helpful, but I find a well placed bullet in the chest is always the first shot to take and will wait for it. The Remington bullet dumps somewhat more energy near the entrance hole than the Speer.

So, what you choose depends upon how you'll shoot. Wait for a clear angle for the vitals? The Remington 200 RN is all that is needed.

If you think you might try a less favorable angle, I myself would only do so as a second choice and wait out the vital area exposure. If you are determined to navigate more bear going toward the vitals the Speer may have an edge.

But not shot too slow! That is my gripe with some of the published loads in the 1850 fps range - they're useless!
 
#12 ·
T-Bone, are you saying that size DOES matter??? I ask you, what're all us .35-size guys s'posed to do, huh? (grin) jd45
My3KidsDad, We've expressed our views on what would best help a fellow hunter nail that trophy bear, in the hope of you doing just that. It remains your final decision to take our advice or try something else. I'll tell you a short story. My Uncle Jim, who owned a Supper Club in Hayward, Wisconsin, shot a 700lb black bear in 1967. How would you like to have such a trophy in your sights with possibly the wrong bullet in your cartridge when it's time to bust the cap? Something to think about, ain't it? jd45
 
#13 ·
Two of my friends have each taken bears at or above the 600 lb. mark in my U.P. county within the last three years. I spent some time looking at the latest one (from last September) in a full, standing mount a few weeks ago. Have to tell you, standing next to that monster, an 18 year old boar, gives one pause. Still, I think 35Rem. is right: a 200 gr. CL through the lungs will probably do just fine--even on a monster like that one. Hope I have a chance to see ;D. In truth, the average bear taken in my part of the country tends to run between 150-200 lbs. The two bears my friends have taken are "bears of ten lifetimes", as the DNR tells them.

I have "larger" rifles--an 1895 in .45-70 and a .338 WM that would certainly work. And I have a VZ24/.35 Whelen project in the works (which is the original reason why I picked up a box of 220 gr. Speers). But the little 336RC war horse I found two years ago is so handy with its 20" barrel and Weaver/post-reticle K3, I think it would be a smarter choice for hunting over bait from a blind. Hopefully, I'll have a report to make later in the year ;).
 
#15 ·
35remington said:
The 200 grain Remington pointed bullet was designed for expansion at higher velocity in bigger cartridges, and the bullets you fired were likely on the low side of the expansion threshold upon impact. Nonexpanding bullets may tumble and lose their jacket - and I believe none of the pointed 200's (being more popular and bigger sellers in the high velocity .35's) have the true "Core-Lokt" feature, which is a thickened jacket midsection that prevents core slippage. The roundnose 200's do.
The 200 RN Core-Lokt is tailor made for the .35 Remington, having the core retaining thick jacket midsection, as well as scallops and slits at the base of the scallops to provide expansion at nearly any practicable velocity. Never a bad choice.

Now, would the 220 Speer have worked better? At Buffalo Bore or +P velocities, likely yes. A reasonable range shot (from your stand, perhaps? You did say 20 to 50 yards, very reasonable for the Speer) would likely have resulted in better expansion, more torn vital tissue, and the bear going down after running off a short distance - just what you want and expect.

FWIW, this year I shot a big buck on the front of the left shoulder as he angled toward me at 30 yards. I recovered the bullet in the right ham. The bullet was the 200 Remington Core Lokt roundnose.

If you reread the bullet performance post, I mention that I found that the Speer 220 penetrated about 50-60 percent more than the proper Remington RN. Whether this is really needed on an unobstructed vital area shot is open to question. The Remington bullet dumps somewhat more energy near the entrance hole than the Speer.
35 remington thank you for taking the time to explain the differences between the 200g. Core Lokt PSP, and the roundnose. Knowing that (I did not simply under power a higher speed designed bullet), but that the construction of the PSP bullet is inferior in that it does not have a locked core belt helps me decide to place my trust back in the Core Lokt roundnose for another try next year. I will continue to watch for opportunities to try the Speer 220g. (at higher velocities) as I believe in the idea of heavier bullets for close work on tough animals.

Again, thank you all for your patience. Now, if only I could find the actual 200g. SP around here for sale.. Magnums short and tall reign in Alberta.
 
#16 ·
PeterCartwright said:
"Dad": Congrats on your big bear! A chap who writes under the name "35Remington" has done extensive research on a whole bunch of projectiles for the .35 Remington--including the 220 gr. Speer. You can find his work either using Google or the search function of this site.

Your experience interests me. I'm due for a (Fall) bear license here in Michigan's Upper Peninsula. I've pretty well decided to use my .35 Rem. as well. My gun dotes on the 200 gr. CL pushed by a stout but not max. load of H4895. I'll probably use that load this Fall, but I've also picked up a box of the 220 gr. Speers to play with this Summer.
Peter- I sure would be interested in hearing about your experiences with your bear hunt. I will be using the recommended 200g. core lokts next hunt.
 
#17 ·
Tmygun said:
I think that the regular Rem. Core-lokt's will be just the ticket at any range with the 35 Rem. It was odd that you got core seperations with the Rem. 200gr. PSP's. As far as the expansion, maybe it was the close range that encouraged it. But it does go to show the erratic behavior of a bullet not designed for the right cartridge. I will say that the performance of those 200gr. PSP's would worry me in the 35 Whelen for anything larger than deer. Maybe a bad lot???
The Speer 220gr. was designed specifically for the 356Win. cartridge, so again, I don't think you will get optimum expansion at 35 Rem. velocities.
But just as jd45 said, the 200gr. Rem. Core-lokt bullet was designed from the very beginning for the 35 Rem., and those guys got it right darn near 100yrs. ago ;D.

Tmygun :D
Tmygun- I didn't know the 220 Speer was designed for the 356. I am thinking that the possible reason for the separation of one of my 200 psp's might be the front right shoulder, joint, and leg that was destroyed with one shot.
 
#18 ·
six_gunz said:
I was planning on using the Remington 200gr RN ammo myself but also I was wondering if anyone has experience and/or tried the 220gr JFN from Buffalo Bore?
This has been recommended to me for hunting hogs and bear with my .35Rem on another site. Thoughts?
http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#35rem
thanks for the info. Let us know if you give them a try?
 
#19 ·
jd45 said:
T-Bone, are you saying that size DOES matter??? I ask you, what're all us .35-size guys s'posed to do, huh? (grin) jd45
My3KidsDad, We've expressed our views on what would best help a fellow hunter nail that trophy bear, in the hope of you doing just that. It remains your final decision to take our advice or try something else. I'll tell you a short story. My Uncle Jim, who owned a Supper Club in Hayward, Wisconsin, shot a 700lb black bear in 1967. How would you like to have such a trophy in your sights with possibly the wrong bullet in your cartridge when it's time to bust the cap? Something to think about, ain't it? jd45
That was just what I was wondering after I had some time to think on the whole thing. 35remington has explained what is the difference above and that settles it for me. thank you your interest. Your uncle ever tell the story of that hunt with the 700 lb. bear? Sure would like to hear it.
 
#20 ·
PeterCartwright said:
Two of my friends have each taken bears at or above the 600 lb. mark in my U.P. county within the last three years. I spent some time looking at the latest one (from last September) in a full, standing mount a few weeks ago. Have to tell you, standing next to that monster, an 18 year old boar, gives one pause.
That was just what I was thinking when the bear came over to me, about 15-20 feet away and popped jaw, and scratched ground. He was telling me something. Cannot imagine what your friends were thinking when they were confronted by their monsters. Whoa! I am thinking God was included in their thoughts.. lol.
 
#21 ·
jd45 said:
T-Bone, are you saying that size DOES matter??? I ask you, what're all us .35-size guys s'posed to do, huh? (grin) jd45
My3KidsDad, We've expressed our views on what would best help a fellow hunter nail that trophy bear, in the hope of you doing just that. It remains your final decision to take our advice or try something else. I'll tell you a short story. My Uncle Jim, who owned a Supper Club in Hayward, Wisconsin, shot a 700lb black bear in 1967. How would you like to have such a trophy in your sights with possibly the wrong bullet in your cartridge when it's time to bust the cap? Something to think about, ain't it? jd45
Well, if I was going by myself and had no pro to back me up and I was hunting trophy black bear that could get over 600 lbs, I would have to think "is my .35 Remington the best gun for this situation?" 35remington has done lots of testing with his own handloads and is pretty confident with what he can and cannot do with it. If I had to bet my life on it, which is exactly what you are talking about, I might just take the 45-70, since I have one in addition to my .35 Rem. However, if you're in a treestand and won't be facing the bear on the ground, that changes things. That was all I was saying.
 
#22 ·
My3KidsDad, Actually, I stand corrected. I was just reading my Speer manual and they said that although the 180gr. and 220gr. bullets were designed for the 35 Rem., they also work well in the 356Win. They did say that they repositioned the cannelure on both bullets for better feeding in 356Win. rifles, that must have been what I was thinking.
Sorry for the misinformation :-[.

Tmygun ::)
 
#23 ·
Tmygun, I didn't know that the 220 gr Speer Bullet was designed specifically for the 356 Winchester. The No. 5 edition of Cartridges of the World lists loads for both calibers. I agree with everybody else who recommends using the 200 Gr Coreloct RN bullet. Trying to use pointed bullets in leverguns is very risky, unless single-loaded, but after all, an avid gun-magazine writer would think that it gives more velocity, energy, raygun-zapping capabilities that a gullible public would like to believe. That, over proven history of flatnose and roundnose slugs, moving between 1800 and 2200 FPS delivering very effective results on game.
 
#25 ·
My3KidsDad, I have to make a correction in the story about my uncle shooting the big bear. I had two bears confused. Let me explain.........the bear my uncle shot weighed 565lbs, guts & all........they hung it on a scale from a nearby tree-limb. He shot it from the back porch at the rear of his restaurant at a distance of about 10 feet with a 1959 Winchester model 1894 in .32 Winchester Special right between the eyes, (how could you miss, right) & it just folded like a house of cards right there. Unfortunately, all that meat went to waste, cause Ol Unc went on a 3-day self-congratulating drunk! Now, the 700lb bear was a sort of pet, that hung around the supperclub, as other animals did, begging for table scraps. This one my Aunt named Bruno, & my uncle said he was knockin on the 700lb door. He said Bruno made the one he shot look like a young-un. Reason Bruno got so big aside from the table scraps, was that my Aunt used to give him gallon-sized cans of Hershey's Chocolate Syrup. Bruno met his end one day on HWY 77 right near the Tally-Ho Supper Club, when, while crossing said highway, he was struck by a car. They heard the noise...........he took about two hours to die of his injuries. They could hear him thrashing in the woods off & on. Sorry for the error, jd45
 
#26 ·
jd45 said:
T-bone.......relax man, I was just trying to make a joke. I admit it was a feeble attempt, & I obviously failed. Don't worry, I'm not taking it to Las Vegas! I have to say I do agree with your "bring enough gun" theory, tho. jd45
You think I should relax?? I didn't think I was tense. Man, that always happens when I use bold font! People start thinking I'm tense. It's cool man. I'm mellow. 8)
 
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