Vintage 38-40 ammo questions

[lever addict]

Does anyone know anything about the BHN in the original 38-40 black powder rounds? I'm thinking I may just try the Holy Black in my 38-40 if I can find a supplier who makes soft lead bullets like the originals. I'm thinking with the oversize bores in these old guns it may be the best way to go rather than casting which I really don't want to do. The black powder round bumped up to the varied size bores in these old guns. At the worst maybe a .41 cal lead bullet in .410 will work? I tried to slug my gun today without much sucess as I did not have a correct size sinker to do the job, but I did get around .410 at the muzzle. I will do it correctly and get the right measurments, but for now i'm just thinking out loud! Maybe someone knows who makes oversize 38-40 bullets?

[smithywess]

Maybe someone knows who makes oversize 38-40 bullets?

Lou,

Just look for a bullet maker who supplies cast bullets for folk who shoot the .41 Magnum. The diameter for the .41 Magnum is .410" I see saeco puts out a mould which throws a 185 grain bullet in .412" which might be even better. Lots and lots of choices. For instance I cast bullets for my .40-65 Marlins in .410" but purposefully a bit heavier than your ideal 180 grains. Check with Buffalo Arms to see if they stock moulds in .410" which I'm sure they do. Lee will build you an inexpensive bullet sizing die to whatever specs you want. I'm shooting a 180 grain F.N.F.B. out of an Accurate Moulds mould which I got Tom there to make for me in .412" and sized to .410" (which I've got for the .40-65) the bullet works really well in my .38-40. I thought I might have to go to a sizer of .411" or .412" because my rifle slugs to .4105" but using Polyethylene Shot Buffer as a filler makes the rifle group to an inch at 50 yards.

Hope this helps.

[Sweetwater]

WOW - your 38-40 is way oversized at .410 and larger! I have a pal with a Marlin 40-60 and it shoots my old SSK mold 280gr bullets sized at .413, and my 40-82WCF likes the big bullets, too, but my 38-40 Winchester 1873 likes the .402 cast bullets.

Jeff
NRA Life

[Roninrlm]

Greetings

I shoot about 200rds a month of 38/40 in everything from Marlin to Colts and Winchesters. I only shoot BP in my Uberti's----why mess up a good old Gun with BP? 38/40 bullets are EASY to come by and not nearly as much trouble as casting your own.

I think you are going to have massive pressure problems using a .410 to .413 dia bullet. I would start with what Marlin/Winchester suggest----a .401 180 gr lead bullet. Every loading guide I have shows a .401 bullet ?

What I am shooting in all of my 38/40's is a 180gr---.401 Lead bullet--with starting load of 4.5grs of Trail Boss (about 725fps) and a max load of 5.5grs of TB ( about 910fps). I just Mic'ed 5 of my 38/40's and they ALL were under .400 bore size. Older guns were .380 to.395 and newer pistols were .400.

Also, why do you want to go to a oversize bullet? Have you shot it (Rifle or Pistol) yet? Do the bullets tumble?

Just DO NOT SHOOT a 410 or .413 bullet in it.

Ronin.

[Levergunz]

I am shooting .401 in my old 1894.I never did slug the barrel,but it shoots so well why bother.Some rifles may have chambering issues with sizes much larger.I know many of the bullet makers can provide different sizes and softer bullets with a BP lube on them.I bought and used some from Penn Bullets with great success.Dont use bullets with the hard crayon type lubes as they are meant for smokyless.I have had good luck casting with WW material.I would go with about 12 BHN of softer.

[lever addict]

Once I slug the bore I will know for sure. I started, but the sinker was too tight and I aborted the mission. I checked what I got near the muzzle and it was about .410 in the grooves. Like I said I was thinking out loud! I don't want to cast so either need to find a commercial caster that makes bullets larger than .401. If the bore is in fact as large as .410 the .41 mag bullet may work.

Oversize bore? Keep in mind my rifle is an old BP gun dating to 1891. The bore looks beautiful! Bright, good rifling and no pitting. Maybe a soft .401 will bump up and work? That would be nice, but I would think accuracy would suffer. PSB may be my savior here!

I guess I was getting ahead of myself here feeling out all of the different routes this old gun will take me. I have to find some different sinkers or maybe some of my front stuffer buddies have something that small?

[lever addict]

Greetings

I shoot about 200rds a month of 38/40 in everything from Marlin to Colts and Winchesters. I only shoot BP in my Uberti's----why mess up a good old Gun with BP? 38/40 bullets are EASY to come by and not nearly as much trouble as casting your own.

I think you are going to have massive pressure problems using a .410 to .413 dia bullet. I would start with what Marlin/Winchester suggest----a .401 180 gr lead bullet. Every loading guide I have shows a .401 bullet ?

What I am shooting in all of my 38/40's is a 180gr---.401 Lead bullet--with starting load of 4.5grs of Trail Boss (about 725fps) and a max load of 5.5grs of TB ( about 910fps). I just Mic'ed 5 of my 38/40's and they ALL were under .400 bore size. Older guns were .380 to.395 and newer pistols were .400.

Also, why do you want to go to a oversize bullet? Have you shot it (Rifle or Pistol) yet? Do the bullets tumble?

Just DO NOT SHOOT a 410 or .413 bullet in it.

Ronin.

I reload and have to buy $$ a box of say 500 bullets at ,401 dia only to find out they are worthless to me if in fact the bore is .410! I've had enough experience where I wont just go shoot it first with whatever is available. I will slug the bore first and try for 1 or 2 over bore size.

If the bore is in fact .410 then I have no problem shooting a .413 bullet in it.
Pressure spikes? I agree IF your trying to shoot a 410 slug down a .400 bore. Now a .410 slug in a .410 bore....no problem! Your Ubertis bore will be no where near the originals bores. Especially one thats 121 years old.

[Sweetwater]

My 1873 Win 38-40 is an 1883 mfg date. Great gramp fed the famiy and a logging camp with it on Molasses Pond in Hancock County, Maine. Not much finish on it and a lot of wear, but it really likes those Penn 180's and 7gr of Unique.

Jeff
NRA Life

[ia1727]

Lou--

Slug it first--then you'll know for sure.

Steve

[smithywess]

Once I slug the bore I will know for sure.

Lou,

Until a handloader knows exactly what his rifle(or pistol) barrel's groove diameter is it's a matter of hit and miss. Some folk might get lucky first time around with what's "supposed" to be the correct diameter bullet but it's just luck. Just luck. In those blackpowder times soft lead bullets bumped up to fill overbore barrels and there wasn't a great deal of attention paid by the manufacturers to exacting tolerances re bore diameter. Smokeless powder will bump bullets up to a certain degree but often not as much as will seal the bore, especially with harder cast bullets. The answer is to measure the groove diameter with a slug and shoot bullets one to two thousandths of an inch over the groove diameter. There will be no gas cutting because the bullet fits the bore snugly. P.S.B will get good results if the bullet isn't too far underbore by acting as a flexible gas check. Of course folk can always return to shooting very soft bullets (1:40) with blackpowder charges and they can expect good accuracy as their bullets bump up. When smokeless powder became established manufacturers tightened up their tolerances to match land and groove diameter in a much better way.

Thanks. Without slugging the bore the road ahead will be foggy.